Hummel & Flakpanzer Question (1 Viewer)

[jazzeum]

Some individuals on all sides did some terrible and stupid things during WWII and we should all acknowledge that so that we can learn and move on. Such deeds are made worse when a leader, government and or regime encourages them. If we don't learn we will no doubt be forced to revisit the same issues - over and over again.

Oz,

I'm not sure you meant this to come out the way it did but this essentially groups both sides together when the German people did far more terrible things than the Allies ever could have done or conceived. I know I don't need to elaborate on these things.

In addition, if we wish to try to segregate what the SS and its Einsatzgruppen did from the Wehrmacht, that division isn't really possible. A book published by a German scholar, Wolfram Wette, and published this year in an english translation, The Wehrmacht: History, Myth and Reality makes clear that the Wehrmacht worked hand in hand with the SS in its policy of extermination in Eastern Europe and that the belief that the Wehrmacht fought a "clean war" is just a myth.

I had previously mentioned this book in this thread, http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1417

 

[OzDigger]

Oz,

I'm not sure you meant this to come out the way it did but this essentially groups both sides together when the German people did far more terrible things than the Allies ever could have done or conceived. I know I don't need to elaborate on these things.

In addition, if we wish to try to segregate what the SS and its Einsatzgruppen did from the Wehrmacht, that division isn't really possible. A book published by a German scholar, Wolfram Wette, and published this year in an english translation, The Wehrmacht: History, Myth and Reality makes clear that the Wehrmacht worked hand in hand with the SS in its policy of extermination in Eastern Europe and that the belief that the Wehrmacht fought a "clean war" is just a myth.

I had previously mentioned this book in this thread, http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1417

You are correct in that I have not confined this as being a 'German' problem only. That said I'm sure you and others could list a number of publications that quote this and that to fit into whatever suits your particular culture or way of thinking. I stand by my belief as a humanitarian that people are basically good, no matter what their culture, religion or belief, but sometimes they do the wrong thing as a group.

Brad, you seem to be suggesting that the entire German armed forces in WWII and perhaps all the Germans people knew what Hitler was about and agreed entirely with his way of thinking. Which to me is the same as saying that every person in Iraq had the same beliefs and agreed with Saddam Hussein. Clearly, even your Mr Bush has worked out that that isn't always the case.

 

[jazzeum]

Oz,

I agree that people are born the same. It is the socialization process that helps form them the way they are. So, it would be incorrect that the German people were innately evil, especially since if you examine the genetic makeup or the composition of the European peoples they are essentially the same, subject, of course, to the differences arising out of geography, climate, etc.

I don't want to compare one people to another as the circumstances were different, plus let's try to avoid politics if we can. However, for the most part I do see most of the German people and their armed forces as complicit and willing participants in what Hitler wrought. The Armed Forces has opportunities to stop him or to put the brakes on but never did. They either lacked the will or were in favor of the results. Certainly, what happened in Eastern Europe, particulary the Ukraine, was done with their willing complicity.

While it is true that one can bend facts to suit an argument, I strongly recommend that you read Professor Wette's book. I'm sure you will not disagree with his conclusions.

 

[Firebat]

May they rest in peace what ever it was............

 

[panda1gen]

Nice diorama, bit grizzly.....

 

[Firebat]

Nice diorama, bit grizzly.....

Unfortunately I agree with you, but I like to sober us up once and a while. And it sort of brings the essence of this deep and interesting conversation together. Alex

 

[maddadicus]

Nice diorama, bit grizzly.....

All dioramas should not be so bright and shiny that we forget what war really is...........Michael