If Ordered, I couldn't............. (1 Viewer)

[bromhead]

In a wartime situation any difficulties you cause for yourself for instance can easily result in your being put into a position that can result in your death,,example,,I became #1 on a higher rankers S--t list,,I was told to drive a vehicle alone with one other to meet and "pick up" a patrol near the cambodian border along a "road" considered one of the worst areas in the zone,,the resulting situation and the obvious danger at the time easily would have led to me never being seen or heard from again. Had I refused being directed to do so would have led to the maximum punishment with equaly being forgotten about effects. The bottom line being never refuse orders ,the nazi defense only works with witnesses,

 

[Gideon]

There's a million and one things I could come up with but what ever one would land in front of me had better be a big one. I just assume that if an order comes through and I won't do it that my life will end sooner than later. Those are things which must be considered when disobeying an order.

Many people I've read about suffered terrible consequences in later life. Living with decisions, being branded a traitor and having pick what was left of the life and leave.

There are very serious consequences to that which make the question so difficult.

I couldn't kill children and unarmed cilvilians but, then again, if they were being used a shield and the people I was serving with were suffering, well, that might change things.

Not a simple question.

 

[VIRIATO]

This post hits it on the head. I would argue, though, that the surety
and security that the Victorian and Edwardian ages instilled for a male in the military was all blown to pieces by the First World War. After WW1, no one was left unaware of what warfare was or could do to the human mind and body. There was no where to hide from truth anymore, what with such widespread service, casualties, and news coverage. WW1 was the watershed. The breaking point was reached and passed in France in 1917. After the mutinies, the French Army was on eggshells. The officers could never take their men for granted again. The French Army (a large part of it, anyway) had reached the "I won't do that" point. No nation involved wanted to do WW1 again (or could afford to) or put such a burden on their Armies that another breaking point might be reached. I just believe that the "glorious" war was buried on the western front and that no illusions remained. War had always been horrible for the people involved and WW1 involved everyone, on a massive scale. Nothing has been the same since. -- Al

Yes, WWI was the turning point, a tragical transition between the ways of waging war of the 19th century and the 20th. And the advent of the machine gun takes a lot of the blame... People learned the hard way that it was not phisically possible/efficient to charge like they did in the 18th or 19th Century. That said, have you thought of the 18th Century, the FIW, Seven Years War or the AWI and of the slow pace charges against musket fire and artillery? Or later of the final French charges at Waterloo? Iron discipline indeed.

Paulo

 

[Spitfrnd]

In a wartime situation any difficulties you cause for yourself for instance can easily result in your being put into a position that can result in your death,,example,,I became #1 on a higher rankers S--t list,,I was told to drive a vehicle alone with one other to meet and "pick up" a patrol near the cambodian border along a "road" considered one of the worst areas in the zone,,the resulting situation and the obvious danger at the time easily would have led to me never being seen or heard from again. Had I refused being directed to do so would have led to the maximum punishment with equaly being forgotten about effects. The bottom line being never refuse orders ,the nazi defense only works with witnesses,

Yes wearing the uniform means that you will frequently be put in circumstances that can result in your death. All of us who have done that, know that all to well. The difference is the senseless waste of your death for obviously no purpose. To me the bottom line was only refuse an order if it was clearly wrong and I was prepared to deal with the consequencies. Not something to be done lightly but something that sometimes must be done; sometimes the honor of the situation is to just say no.

 

[Warrior]

I am not surprised that many voted with their feet in Pickett's charge but rather surprised that the casualties were still not devastating. Is it not true that the charge left Picket with less than half of his division?

About 12,000 men took part in Picketts Charge, of which about 5400 to 5600 were casualties, either killed, wounded or captured.

I'd call 45% pretty devastating..............

 

[Go for Broke]

I just saw a documentary on PBS about the My Lai masscre (500+ dead civilians) in Vietnam. They interviewed the soldiers that were there, along with Vietnamese villagers. Some soldiers said they would have been shot, if they disobeyed orders, other said they were just following orders. A US helicopter intervened, landed and aimed their MGs at the US soldiers, while they rescued villagers. The helicopter pilot reported the incident, was ignored and sent on dangerous missions to get rid of him. He crashed 4-copters in a 3 month period. It just goes to show that doing the right thing isn't easy and the good guys don't always win (helicopter pilot).

 

[Cardigan600]

I just saw a documentary on PBS about the My Lai masscre (500+ dead civilians) in Vietnam. They interviewed the soldiers that were there, along with Vietnamese villagers. Some soldiers said they would have been shot, if they disobeyed orders, other said they were just following orders. A US helicopter intervened, landed and aimed their MGs at the US soldiers, while they rescued villagers. The helicopter pilot reported the incident, was ignored and sent on dangerous missions to get rid of him. He crashed 4-copters in a 3 month period. It just goes to show that doing the right thing isn't easy and the good guys don't always win (helicopter pilot).

Yo Trooper, saw a similar Documentary think it was Korea were the US soldiers had hundreds of civilians trapped in a railway tunnel, and were ordered to kill them all. They fired into the tunnel day & night, the survivors told their story, they had to stack the bodies up to hide behind. The US veteran soldiers responsible were interviewed as well, and said its a nightmare they have had to live with for 50 years. Question is what sort of Officer would give such an order, and what sort of soldiers would carry out the order. I mean if they all had downed weapons and refused the order, what could an officer do about it. Sometimes one has to stand up and be counted. At the time of the documentary the civilian survivors were still trying to claim compensation from the US for the massacre.
Bernard.

 

[BlakeWR85]

What's the saying, that 3 men and a machine gun could stop a battalion of heroes, or something to that effect.
How about being a 7th cavalry trooper in June of 1876, and your Gen. Custer orders an attack against a nation of Sioux and other tribes. What would you think? I would've felt better if I had a Winchester repeater, not the g.i. carbines.

 

[Spitfrnd]

About 12,000 men took part in Picketts Charge, of which about 5400 to 5600 were casualties, either killed, wounded or captured.

I'd call 45% pretty devastating..............

Thank you George, so would I.

 

[Warrior]

Thank you George, so would I.

Actually Bill, reports are quite a few of those reported casualties were captured troops, but they still were in effect taken out of the Southern ranks for the balance of the war, so it crippled her ability to continue to wage war.................

 

[DCN1898]

I am not condoning the actions in Korea or vietnam but as German soldiers had to deal with in Russia, when the enemy hides amongst the civilians (or even rumors that they do) and you are an 18 year old, scared kid, the lines get blurred. My brother who was career Army and a Vietnam vet talked to an officer that was stationed near My Lai but didn't know Lt. Calley. This officer related how he arrived in Vietnam as a 19 year old infantry platoon commander with 35 soldiers under his command. Within 6 months, his platoon had suffered 19 casualties and all happened in and around My Lai.
When you are young, your leadership isn't much older, you are afraid of the local populace, things can get out of control very quickly.

 

[Go for Broke]

DCN1898, I agree. The strain of combat can be confusing. Prior to the massacre, 2-platoons walked simultaneously into a minefield and sustained many casualties as soldiers stepped on mines trying to rescue the wounded. One stepped on a bouncing betty and his body was torn from crotch to chest. This put tremendous strain on the soldiers. However, the massacre was still wrong and I am thankful that I never had to experience such events.

 

[DCN1898]

And neither do I, I also am thankful that I was never put in that position.