Illegal, but why not? (1 Viewer)
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Napoleon1er
2nd Lieutenant
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BEAUTIFUL!!!!! A WORK OF ART!{bravo}}{bravo}}
I only wish I had those cannons....
-Sandor :salute::
I only wish I had those cannons....
-Sandor :salute::
Harper (aka Spitfrnd)
Banned
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Lovely work on the fort, a work of art really.
mikemiller1955
Lieutenant General
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- Aug 3, 2008
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Ken...it's looking great...you do really nice work...
okay...so what's illegal...
British and French artillery occupying the same rampart...
I give up?
and what's the plus for me...
okay...so what's illegal...
British and French artillery occupying the same rampart...
I give up?
and what's the plus for me...
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For the siege of Fort William Henry, I have never seen a "true" inventory of the guns. We have a excellent inventory for October 1756, but not August 1757. We know that in October 1756, there were 35 artillery pieces at Fort William Henry. At least six 18-pounders, two howitzers, and one 13-inch mortar were stripped from Fort William Henry and moved, the math and later descriptions suggests they were moved to Fort Edward. I find it interesting that no "history or book" on the siege has picked up on that point (buried in letters from Loudoun to Cumberland).
My guess is at the time of the siege, there were a total of 25 pieces. This total number is in good agreement with several Osprey publications, but the current Osprey texts all lack a breakdown of the inventory. My guess at the artillery:
2 32-pounders
2 18-pounders
3 12-pounders
5 9-pounders
4 6-pounders
4 4-pounder
1 Howitzer (7 1/2 inch)
4 Large Mortars (some 7 1/2 inch - maybe some 10 1/2/ inch)
The "official" report on the Siege at Fort William Henry had been unknown for over two centuries, but was found buried and forgotten in the Lord Loudoun Papers housed at the Huntington Library by Ian Steele. It is the only known copy of the document. Unfortunately, Steele did not find it until after his book "Betrayals: Fort William Henry (1990)" was published. This "official report" was published in the Huntington Library Quarterly, 1992. In this document, there isn't an inventory of guns at the start of the siege, but there are lists of guns remaining 4 or 5 days into the siege, guns surrendered to the French, and some comments on losses due to "bursting". The numbers in this report do not agree with the "Fyre journal", which really isn't a journal, but a report written to the Governor of Massachusetts about 1 or 2 months after the battle. The two 32-pounders and the two 18-pounders are very solid.
Very interested in seeing what the new Osprey text will say on the artillery inventory, scheduled for release in Fall 2013.
Plus 17 swivel guns
I will have to look up the french artillery inventory tomorrow, but I would think the largest guns were 16-pounders, but with a decent number of large mortars. The french had more guns total than the British. For 2 or 3 days, the British had the freedom to shoot at the French, without the French being in position to respond --- the French were still digging trenches and their first series batteries were not completed. During this "free to shoot at the French" phase, the British burst their 4 largest guns and several of the largest mortars. By the time, the French opened their first artillery battery, the largest gun remaining to the British were the 12-pounders plus they might had had 2 large mortars remaining. Apparently, the British lost only 1 gun to direct fire by the French, a 6-pounder. The howitzer and the four 4-pounders were among the guns surrender to the French. By the end of the siege, all the British mortars were lost to bursting.
My guess is at the time of the siege, there were a total of 25 pieces. This total number is in good agreement with several Osprey publications, but the current Osprey texts all lack a breakdown of the inventory. My guess at the artillery:
2 32-pounders
2 18-pounders
3 12-pounders
5 9-pounders
4 6-pounders
4 4-pounder
1 Howitzer (7 1/2 inch)
4 Large Mortars (some 7 1/2 inch - maybe some 10 1/2/ inch)
The "official" report on the Siege at Fort William Henry had been unknown for over two centuries, but was found buried and forgotten in the Lord Loudoun Papers housed at the Huntington Library by Ian Steele. It is the only known copy of the document. Unfortunately, Steele did not find it until after his book "Betrayals: Fort William Henry (1990)" was published. This "official report" was published in the Huntington Library Quarterly, 1992. In this document, there isn't an inventory of guns at the start of the siege, but there are lists of guns remaining 4 or 5 days into the siege, guns surrendered to the French, and some comments on losses due to "bursting". The numbers in this report do not agree with the "Fyre journal", which really isn't a journal, but a report written to the Governor of Massachusetts about 1 or 2 months after the battle. The two 32-pounders and the two 18-pounders are very solid.
Very interested in seeing what the new Osprey text will say on the artillery inventory, scheduled for release in Fall 2013.
Plus 17 swivel guns
I will have to look up the french artillery inventory tomorrow, but I would think the largest guns were 16-pounders, but with a decent number of large mortars. The french had more guns total than the British. For 2 or 3 days, the British had the freedom to shoot at the French, without the French being in position to respond --- the French were still digging trenches and their first series batteries were not completed. During this "free to shoot at the French" phase, the British burst their 4 largest guns and several of the largest mortars. By the time, the French opened their first artillery battery, the largest gun remaining to the British were the 12-pounders plus they might had had 2 large mortars remaining. Apparently, the British lost only 1 gun to direct fire by the French, a 6-pounder. The howitzer and the four 4-pounders were among the guns surrender to the French. By the end of the siege, all the British mortars were lost to bursting.
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Mike,
You are correct, the French Gunners are in the Foreground and the British in the Mid-Ground and the Background. As for "Mike" special, I change the stone backfill on the ramparts to a smaller brown "clay" gravel that I found at PetCo. You were not fond of the previous "quartz" gravel that was photographing very white.
I wonder how all your Chippawa Gunners would look all massed together?
You are correct, the French Gunners are in the Foreground and the British in the Mid-Ground and the Background. As for "Mike" special, I change the stone backfill on the ramparts to a smaller brown "clay" gravel that I found at PetCo. You were not fond of the previous "quartz" gravel that was photographing very white.
I wonder how all your Chippawa Gunners would look all massed together?
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marco55
Brigadier General
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- 11,407
Thank you Ken.I read somewhere that the French had 36 guns and 4 mortars but can't remember where I saw it.
Mark
Macro, 36 guns and 4 mortars sounds right for the French. Often you will see references to the French utilizing 18-pounders, but this is a British gun. The French equivalent would have been 16-pounders.
At Fort William Henry, the French constructed two artillery batteries, each was 10-guns. A third closer battery might have been completed at the time of the surrender and a fourth was beginning construction. Until all the gun positions in a battery were completed, the attacking guns would be silent. Only when all guns in a battery were ready would the battery open fire, in this case 10 guns. Under these circumstances, all the cannon in the same attacking battery would target the same 1 or 2 gun embrassures. The defending artillery simply couldn't mass the same amount of artillery at a single point, a huge advantage to the attacker. The attacker would systematically destroy the defending artillery positions, one at a time. At the distances involved, the attacker took pains to hide the exact position of their first few batteries until they were ready to fire and only then unmasked the battery. The defending gun positions on the other hand were highly visible on the walls, another distinct advantage to the attacker.
At Fort William Henry, the French constructed two artillery batteries, each was 10-guns. A third closer battery might have been completed at the time of the surrender and a fourth was beginning construction. Until all the gun positions in a battery were completed, the attacking guns would be silent. Only when all guns in a battery were ready would the battery open fire, in this case 10 guns. Under these circumstances, all the cannon in the same attacking battery would target the same 1 or 2 gun embrassures. The defending artillery simply couldn't mass the same amount of artillery at a single point, a huge advantage to the attacker. The attacker would systematically destroy the defending artillery positions, one at a time. At the distances involved, the attacker took pains to hide the exact position of their first few batteries until they were ready to fire and only then unmasked the battery. The defending gun positions on the other hand were highly visible on the walls, another distinct advantage to the attacker.
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From the Siege of Fort William Henry (Hughes, 2011)
French 1st Battery (Morning, August 6th): three 18-pounders, five 12-pounders and one 9-inch mortar (page 191).
French 2nd Battery (Morning, August 7th): two 18-pounders, five 12-pounders, 1 8-pounder, two 7-inch howitzers and 6-inch mortar (page 195).
Unsure if the 3rd and 4th batteries were completed and unmasked before the actual surrender. My impression is that the 3rd battery was very close to being completed and as it was much closer to the fort than the first 2 batteries, it was very worrisome to the British. From my reading, a prime reason for the surrender was the state of the British supply and stores. The British lost most of their guns to bursting and their powder was nearly exhausted. The fort itself was in reasonable good shape and not severely damaged.
The "official" British report lists the British surrendering one 12-pounder, two 9-pounders, four 4-pounders and one 7-inch howitzer to the French. Only a single 6-pounder is known to have been lost to direct fire. The French allowed the British to leave towing a single 6-pounder as a sign of respect. All the rest of the British guns appear to have been lost due to bursting.
French 1st Battery (Morning, August 6th): three 18-pounders, five 12-pounders and one 9-inch mortar (page 191).
French 2nd Battery (Morning, August 7th): two 18-pounders, five 12-pounders, 1 8-pounder, two 7-inch howitzers and 6-inch mortar (page 195).
Unsure if the 3rd and 4th batteries were completed and unmasked before the actual surrender. My impression is that the 3rd battery was very close to being completed and as it was much closer to the fort than the first 2 batteries, it was very worrisome to the British. From my reading, a prime reason for the surrender was the state of the British supply and stores. The British lost most of their guns to bursting and their powder was nearly exhausted. The fort itself was in reasonable good shape and not severely damaged.
The "official" British report lists the British surrendering one 12-pounder, two 9-pounders, four 4-pounders and one 7-inch howitzer to the French. Only a single 6-pounder is known to have been lost to direct fire. The French allowed the British to leave towing a single 6-pounder as a sign of respect. All the rest of the British guns appear to have been lost due to bursting.
Marco,
One final comment. Much of the British contingent manning the guns were actually sailors on loan. British sailors of this era are often thought as being the best artillery anywhere or at least the most accurate. However, it is my own speculation that the background of the naval gunners, where a high rate of fire is very critical, might have lead to the severe rate of bursting. A high rate of fire is not needed or desired at a siege, a long drawn out affair. There is no indication that the British artillery actually hit or disabled a single piece of French artillery and there is no indication that the French lost even a single gun to bursting.
One final comment. Much of the British contingent manning the guns were actually sailors on loan. British sailors of this era are often thought as being the best artillery anywhere or at least the most accurate. However, it is my own speculation that the background of the naval gunners, where a high rate of fire is very critical, might have lead to the severe rate of bursting. A high rate of fire is not needed or desired at a siege, a long drawn out affair. There is no indication that the British artillery actually hit or disabled a single piece of French artillery and there is no indication that the French lost even a single gun to bursting.
Later this month (November 2013), Osprey Press will be releasing their volume on Fort William Henry. I am hoping I can find some inspiration in that volume to continue the work on the fort. But prior to that release, I wanted to take a stab at what I think is the likely number and types of British guns present. I have pre-ordered my copy, so I should have it for the Thanksgiving holiday. Hint, Hint !!!!!
The number of cannon at Fort William Henry at the time of the siege is likely to have been between 24 and 28 pieces. This number includes the guns at the entrenched camp. Some of the variance in the given number of artillery piece present may be due to late arrival of six cannon with Colonel Young’s column on August 2 from Fort Edward. Additional variance may also be explained if there is a differentiation between the fort proper and the colonial encampment which was defended by six cannon. From the daily letters between Colonel Monro and Webb during the actual siege, the Loudoun Report on the Loss of Fort William Henry, and from the journal entries of a Captain Fyre (Massachusetts colonial), I am guessing that the artillery might have looked like this (25 Pieces):
2 – 32 Pounders (Iron)
2- 18 Pounders (Iron)
1 – 12 Pounders (Iron)
2 - 12 Pounders (Brass) (Ft Edward – Field; Fyre)
3 – 9 Pounders (Iron)
2- 9 Pounder (Iron) (Ft Edward; Fyre)
2 – 6 Pounders (Brass) (Ft Edward – Field; Fyre)
2 - 6 Pounders (Brass)
4 – 4 Pounders (Iron)
1 – 7 Inch Howitzer
4 – Mortars (1 7-inch; 1 > 7 inch; and the others 7-inch or larger. Note: Of these 4 mortars, at least 2 are 7.5 inch. One or even two mortars may have been 10-inch, but all 4 may have been 7-8 inch).
17 Swivel (13 Fort, 4 Camp)
Of these 25 larger artillery pieces, the two brass 12-pounders and the four brass 6-pounders were located in the encampment. With the fort experiencing repeated gun losses from bursting, the two 12-pounders were moved from the encampment to the fort several days into the siege. Fort Edward, 12 miles to the south, had about 35 cannon/mortars mounted on the walls. If you read about British 10 pounders, Colonial Munro had lousy penmanship - his 8s and 0s are close.
The Ticonderoga Fortification Pieces will find a new home --- the British/Colonial Encampment at Fort William Henry and you can now add tents immediately behind the log walls.
I haven't counted in a while, but I think the basement project has 27 gun embrasures - woot me!!!!
The number of cannon at Fort William Henry at the time of the siege is likely to have been between 24 and 28 pieces. This number includes the guns at the entrenched camp. Some of the variance in the given number of artillery piece present may be due to late arrival of six cannon with Colonel Young’s column on August 2 from Fort Edward. Additional variance may also be explained if there is a differentiation between the fort proper and the colonial encampment which was defended by six cannon. From the daily letters between Colonel Monro and Webb during the actual siege, the Loudoun Report on the Loss of Fort William Henry, and from the journal entries of a Captain Fyre (Massachusetts colonial), I am guessing that the artillery might have looked like this (25 Pieces):
2 – 32 Pounders (Iron)
2- 18 Pounders (Iron)
1 – 12 Pounders (Iron)
2 - 12 Pounders (Brass) (Ft Edward – Field; Fyre)
3 – 9 Pounders (Iron)
2- 9 Pounder (Iron) (Ft Edward; Fyre)
2 – 6 Pounders (Brass) (Ft Edward – Field; Fyre)
2 - 6 Pounders (Brass)
4 – 4 Pounders (Iron)
1 – 7 Inch Howitzer
4 – Mortars (1 7-inch; 1 > 7 inch; and the others 7-inch or larger. Note: Of these 4 mortars, at least 2 are 7.5 inch. One or even two mortars may have been 10-inch, but all 4 may have been 7-8 inch).
17 Swivel (13 Fort, 4 Camp)
Of these 25 larger artillery pieces, the two brass 12-pounders and the four brass 6-pounders were located in the encampment. With the fort experiencing repeated gun losses from bursting, the two 12-pounders were moved from the encampment to the fort several days into the siege. Fort Edward, 12 miles to the south, had about 35 cannon/mortars mounted on the walls. If you read about British 10 pounders, Colonial Munro had lousy penmanship - his 8s and 0s are close.
The Ticonderoga Fortification Pieces will find a new home --- the British/Colonial Encampment at Fort William Henry and you can now add tents immediately behind the log walls.
I haven't counted in a while, but I think the basement project has 27 gun embrasures - woot me!!!!
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Good Evening Everyone,
This has been annoying me for two years now. As it regards the Siege of Fort William Henry (Last of the Mohicans), more than a slight correction needs to be made in my post from 3 years ago, but I am reasonably confident that these numbers are now accurate. The total is 28 pieces of artillery. There are 22 pieces of artillery in the Bastion and 6 pieces at the Entrenched Camp, not counting the thirteen swivel guns positioned in the Bastion and four swivel guns in the Entrenched Camp. Of the 28 pieces, 14 pieces were small bore cannon: ten 6-pounders and four 4-pounders. Nine pieces "burst" and a single piece was lost to French fire.
When one of the key historical was transcribed and published in an academic journal, there was a transcription error involving the number of 9-pounders present. It made a mess out of all the previous accounting attempts. Compared the academic journal to a PDF of the original and bam, slam: TYPO ...... Two 9-pounders, not five 9-pounders!!!
The pieces "lost" during the Siege are shown in the right column. Dates are less certain:
British Artillery at Fort William Henry: Bastion Plus Entrenched Camp (August 3, 1757)
Two 32-pounders (Iron) (Bastion).....................................Two Burst - Late 6th; or 7th
Two 18-pounders (Iron) (Bastion).....................................Two Burst - 5th; 5th or 6th
Two 12-pounders (Iron) (Bastion).....................................One Burst - 5th or Early 6th
Two 12-pounder (Brass)
(Entrenched Camp; Young/Fyre Column)............................One Burst - 7th
Two 9-pounders (Iron) (Bastion; Young/Fyre Column)
Six 6-pounders Brass:...................................................One Destroyed - 6th Bastion
.................................................................................One Burst - 7th Camp
Subtotals:
Two 6-pounders (Brass) (Bastion)
Two 6-pounders (Brass) (Bastion/Collins Inventory; Positioned in Entrenched Camp)
Two 6-pounders (Brass) (Entrenched Camp; Young/Fyre Column)
Four 6-pounders (Iron) (Bastion)
Four 4-pounders (Iron) (Bastion)
One 7-3/4 Inch Howitzer (Bastion)
Three 7-3/4 Inch Mortars (Bastion)..................................Two Burst - 4th; 8th or 9th
"Fit" British Artillery Surrendered at Fort William Henry (August 9, 1757) – 18 Pieces
One 12-pounder (Iron) (Bastion)
One 12-pounder (Brass) Entrenched Camp
Two 9-pounders (Iron) (Bastion)
Four 6-pounders (Iron) (Bastion)
One 6-pounders (Brass) (Bastion)
Three 6-pounders (Brass) (Entrenched Camp)
Four 4-pounders (Iron) (Bastion)
One 7-3/4 inch Howitzer (Iron) (Bastion)
One 7-3/4 inch Mortar (Iron) (Bastion)
Basement will be opening sometime next summer, still in middle of a construction zone here.
This has been annoying me for two years now. As it regards the Siege of Fort William Henry (Last of the Mohicans), more than a slight correction needs to be made in my post from 3 years ago, but I am reasonably confident that these numbers are now accurate. The total is 28 pieces of artillery. There are 22 pieces of artillery in the Bastion and 6 pieces at the Entrenched Camp, not counting the thirteen swivel guns positioned in the Bastion and four swivel guns in the Entrenched Camp. Of the 28 pieces, 14 pieces were small bore cannon: ten 6-pounders and four 4-pounders. Nine pieces "burst" and a single piece was lost to French fire.
When one of the key historical was transcribed and published in an academic journal, there was a transcription error involving the number of 9-pounders present. It made a mess out of all the previous accounting attempts. Compared the academic journal to a PDF of the original and bam, slam: TYPO ...... Two 9-pounders, not five 9-pounders!!!
The pieces "lost" during the Siege are shown in the right column. Dates are less certain:
British Artillery at Fort William Henry: Bastion Plus Entrenched Camp (August 3, 1757)
Two 32-pounders (Iron) (Bastion).....................................Two Burst - Late 6th; or 7th
Two 18-pounders (Iron) (Bastion).....................................Two Burst - 5th; 5th or 6th
Two 12-pounders (Iron) (Bastion).....................................One Burst - 5th or Early 6th
Two 12-pounder (Brass)
(Entrenched Camp; Young/Fyre Column)............................One Burst - 7th
Two 9-pounders (Iron) (Bastion; Young/Fyre Column)
Six 6-pounders Brass:...................................................One Destroyed - 6th Bastion
.................................................................................One Burst - 7th Camp
Subtotals:
Two 6-pounders (Brass) (Bastion)
Two 6-pounders (Brass) (Bastion/Collins Inventory; Positioned in Entrenched Camp)
Two 6-pounders (Brass) (Entrenched Camp; Young/Fyre Column)
Four 6-pounders (Iron) (Bastion)
Four 4-pounders (Iron) (Bastion)
One 7-3/4 Inch Howitzer (Bastion)
Three 7-3/4 Inch Mortars (Bastion)..................................Two Burst - 4th; 8th or 9th
"Fit" British Artillery Surrendered at Fort William Henry (August 9, 1757) – 18 Pieces
One 12-pounder (Iron) (Bastion)
One 12-pounder (Brass) Entrenched Camp
Two 9-pounders (Iron) (Bastion)
Four 6-pounders (Iron) (Bastion)
One 6-pounders (Brass) (Bastion)
Three 6-pounders (Brass) (Entrenched Camp)
Four 4-pounders (Iron) (Bastion)
One 7-3/4 inch Howitzer (Iron) (Bastion)
One 7-3/4 inch Mortar (Iron) (Bastion)
Basement will be opening sometime next summer, still in middle of a construction zone here.
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Desertkiwi
1st Lieutenant
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Great thread, thanks so much for sharing!