Is it a toy soldier or a model soldier? (1 Viewer)

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

Hi All!
On another thread an interesting conversation emerged on an old topic.
Are we collecting Toy Soldiers or are we collecting Model Soldiers?

Here are a couple of quotes and requests from the other thread to help frame this:
From Wickipedia as posted by Ozdigger:

"Toy soldiers vary from simple playthings to highly realistic and detailed models. The latter are of more recent development and are sometimes called model figures to distinguish them from traditional toy soldiers."

And a quote and request from Marco55:

"I belong to or follow forums of painters and sculpters who create and or paint miniatures and they distinguish between historical/military miniatures and toy soldiers.
Masters such as Alan Ball sculpt for both but I think that in recent times toy soldiers and models/miniatures have split and are on two different roads.
I know that this is a KC thread but I would like Ken Osen to post and voice his opinion.I don't think there is right or wrong in this but I am interested in the opinion of a professional.I did want to say that I have recently noticed an upsurge of interest in the Traditionals on the forum.Any opinions about this?
Mark"

I have been in this hobby and industry in many different capacities over the years. As with almost all of us, my initial attraction to the soldiers, tanks and guns were as Toys. This was common and acceptable in the early 1960s and it had a long history preceding it.
We know that Tin Soldiers were being imported for sale in North America as early as the 1770s.

It is important to understand that these Toys are the important link in that they are representations of real things in some fashion and reflect an organized culture and their institutions.

Pretty early on, with the encouragement of my uncle who both collected and painted soldiers, I understood this connection.

This in turn spurred my interest in the history and the material culture of the military it represented.

This is where some collectors, hobbyists and amateur historians can part depending on their own perceptions and interests.
These miniatures are representations of real people, animals, uniforms and equipment.

Some merely give an impression of a particular soldier and period. These may or may not be classified as toys. Some early Greek and Roman bronze miniatures clearly are representative of soldiers from the period, but are usually not detailed at a level that might classify them as a model. In most cases these may not be toys either.

Some miniatures are very literal in replication of every detail that can be successfully modeled in a given scale. These are often considered models, and are usually created at a specific common scale to the human or animal represented. The material culture items related to the human are modeled as a reduction that is a fraction, with 1/1 representing full scale in the real world.

To be continued...

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

... so to continue,
I would first have to agree with Mark that there is not a universal right and wrong. What we collect and why is about personal perception. With that said however, we can look at the subjects a little closer to see what might differentiate them.

If we restrict the conversation to two categories for the moment we can keep subject somewhat manageable.

Category A.
In some cases only a literal replication in a precise fashion, and in a given fractional scale will satisfy an individual. This is often the focus of a single figure, vehicle or small grouping. This category is usually referred to as a Scale Model, Military Miniature, or a Historical Miniature. This is often a one of a kind item or is created in limited editions.

Category B.
In some cases the overall impression is far more important and can also include associated emotions, perceptions, or life experiences. The lack of small details is often offset by mass and color evoking a feeling.
Manufacturing limitations or durability are often factored in the design of the subject. This category often includes miniatures produced in mass or limited production.

In almost all case the pre decorated historical miniatures that we collect as adults fall into Category B. These can be called Toy Soldiers, Military Miniatures, Historical Miniatures or even Collectible Miniatures.

Obviously there is overlap in terminology between the two and this has been the source of the age old argument and what qualifies one or the other.

To be continued...

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

Back from the bench while some epoxy putty sets up!

Here are some thoughts about the 'A' Category previously listed. Very few figures or models really ever have to achieve the quality that this category seems to require by it's definition.

The first group within this category may be bound by requirements that demand either a high level of historical accuracy, or the complete illusion of realism. This usually includes professionals working for museum display companies or for the film industry.

Almost everyones expectations of a museum model are high and some of the newest work can be very good. In most cases they are held to a high level as far as historical accuracy is concerned at the time they are made.
Often we make the mistake of judging what we see in museum displays forgetting that it might be twenty years old or more, or perhaps created on a tight budget for a local museum.

For great examples of high quality museum models I would direct anyone to visit the Royal Navy Museum at Portsmouth, UK to see their outstanding exhibits.
Another place to see first rate models is the museum housing the Bayeux Tapestry at Bayeux, France.

The film industry often requires models to stand in for reality when computer generated models are not used. The best work is so good that the illusion of reality tells us that it is not a model at all.

For those interested in seeing this level of execution take a look at the thread covering the Delaware show and the figure competition. Take a look at the WWII Best of Show winner by John Rosengrant.
He is a professional model maker working in the movie industry and is also a military miniaturist. He is doing some of the finest work today both professionally, and as a hobbyist.

The hobby side of this category also includes those that paint, convert, and sometimes sculpt their own figures. Some members of this group compete and sell their pieces as one of a kind works of art, and in some cases even create patterns for the figure kit industry.
Much of the work from this group can be very attractive as a finished piece and it is considered an art form. Although many are accomplished artists in their own right, the finished work may be fragile, stylized, or even historically inaccurate compared to the museum or film models.

Almost all of the artists, technicians and hobbyists I know involved with this kind of work prefer to have the work referred to as Models, Miniatures, Art or something similar.

All of the above listed work is not designed or intended for even limited duplication as a pre decorated product. These other products often have different requirements and as a result fall into the 'B' Category.

More musings on that soon.

 

[Lewey Gun Vick]

Very interesting thread Ken!!! With museum quality dioramas, would you suggest the Battle of the River Raisin Museum in Monroe? BTW, just recieved my H&A Studio walls, words cannot describe the realisticness of them.

Vick

 

[marco55]

Ken,
I tend to buy the figure kits and have them painted by a professional.Sometimes I get a single figure painted and sometimes I group 3 or 4 figures together to create a unique vignette.I have collected Conte And Jenkins and think they are very nice but I prefer the uniqueness of the kits as I can get them painted and set up any way I want.I usually let the artists paint what they think is nice and not have to follow the box art as long as it's pretty historically realistic.I think the reason I consider toy soldiers and historical miniatures different is because I have had both and see the difference.I'm really enjoying what you have said so far on this thread.
Mark

 

[Njja]

Can anyone imagine having the ability to design, sculpt and create any

figure or diorama from your workbench? I really think that is the coolest thing.

It is also interesting that most of the people I have met with this kind of

talent are humble and really don't think it is that big a deal!

I am luck enough to have a few items Ken has designed and I enjoy them

every day!

I would have as much chance creating something like that as a chimp locked

in a room for 100 years!

Wife says my talent...........is causing trouble!

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

Well I am back again with another Yankee well on it's way now. Just a few more hours of work and off I go on another pattern.

So Category B.

This pretty much encompasses all of the commercially produced pre decorated figures and vehicles that we cover on this forum and others.
This includes a wide variety of scales and styles, but they all really share some basic, common considerations. Many of these things would never apply to the A Category.

These include but are not limited to:
1. Marketability
2. Ease of manufacture
3. Price point
4. Durability
5. Ease of packaging and transport

1. Marketability
Obviously there is always a customer somewhere for any number of diverse topics. From a marketing point of view most companies will choose subjects that are reasonably well known to a given market.
This is often driven by popular culture as much as real history. These can be perceptions formed by tradition, propaganda, current viewpoints, lack of hard evidence, film and sound bite history.
This is often the reason why we see Tiger Tanks, Waffen SS, Spitfires, Messerschmitts, and Napoleonic infantry at Waterloo over and over.
These subjects are easy to sell and have proven track records, so they are usually good choices for mass produced, pre decorated items.

The simple reason for this is that the best business model will guarantee a fast turn around on the investment in research, development, manufacturing and distribution of the product.
Good choices on subjects to be developed, from a business standpoint, will help insure that the business not only survives but will grow.
In some cases the prolonged good health of a company will allow more diverse products, even in smaller runs.
This often will have a smaller return on the R&D than larger runs, but may be important for brand recognition.

Subject matter and marketability is one of the areas that Categories A & B usually differ on.
Museums must tell a specific story and are often considered the bastions of 'truth'. All stories can be told even if it is not a popular subject. Often these are public institutions that run on slim margins and endowments.

For the hobbyist, painter and collector it is often about the unusual. This is why you see such diverse topics in competitions. There is no need to create art for the masses and it only takes one client to sell the work and all that is invested in it.
With that said it is still amusing that The same popular subjects show up here too!

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

2. Ease of manufacture
Again, this is an area that A & B often differ. The level of difficulty for museums and other special use models will usually not effect the decision to move forward to create the model.
The difficulty level of design and creation will only effect the delivery time or cost. Sometimes the cost will increase if the delivery time is compressed and this is why so many film projects cost so much. I know I have worked around the clock to meet a film shoot deadline. It isn't fun but it can pay well.

For the collectibles industry the method, ease and cost of manufacture will often dictate whether a project ever gets considered at all. Many a great concept was killed before a new products conversation even ended.
Some collectibles companies are specialized enough that they will not consider a manufacturing method they are not familiar with.

This is compounded by the fact that many, if not most of the figure companies are really design and marketing houses that rarely manufacture their own products in house. In some cases there is not even a sculptor, engineer or researcher on permanent staff. If the key management personnel are not familiar with various manufacturing processes and materials it may limit their choices.

If they are familiar with the use of die cast metal they might not consider spin cast white metal.
If they are use to designing for injection molded plastic products they might not consider cast resin.

Additional materials such as wood, brass, urethane foam, investment castings and photo etch all require special skills and equipment. The unique characteristics of these dissimilar materials and manufacturing requirements often inhibit the design company from realizing potential product development opportunities.

The path of least resistance and a known process are the most likley choices for a company to consider.
To further compound this many of the vendors that they might use to manufacture products for them may not co-operate with other companies creating components.
In some cases the seemingly simple task of co-ordinating the timely production and delivery of components to the final assembly location is mind boggling in itself.

When we focus on the end product, we will often see additional differences between the one of a kind and limited edition models compared to the 'mass produced' products.

In the 'A' Category numerous small or delicate parts are often the rule rather than the exception if it makes a better representation of the prototype.

This is not always the case with a product designed for mass production. Usually the more parts you create the more the pattern costs and the more the molding and assembly will cost from the vendor. This will affect the price point and there is a tipping point at which the MSRP becomes more difficult to market.

A simpler assembly will also be easier to communicate to the vendor. As a result there will probably be fewer complications making a timely delivery more likely. Again this will often create another welcomed 'path of least resistance'.

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

I will pick up where I left off tomorrow with price point.
All the Best till then!
Ken

 

[wadepat]

Hi Ken,

Thanks for presenting this interesting information. It is both enlightening and educational. I look forward to reading the additional discussions you plan to present tomorrow!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[Al Fisher]

I think that nearly everyone has their own definition of toy soldiers, model soldiers, and (yes) military miniatures. For my purposes, I think of a military miniature as being displayed as a single figure or, at most, a small vignette. A manufacturer may produce many, but the modeler only purchases one or two. I think of toy soldiers as being massed produced and displayed in larger groups. In either case, the figure(s) may start as a casting. But I consider both to be model soldiers.

Al

 

[skeeterbuck]

To my way of thinking there are four general areas of "scale model figures".

First is the "Museum Quality" figure. These are figures that are crafted to be as closely as possible to model the real person and are prefectly done down to the smallest detail.

Second is the "Scale Models". Figures that are mass produced, painted in matte finish, shading to the clothes etc. but not to the level of the "Museum Quality" figure. Think K&C, Honour Bound, etc.

Third is the "Collector Toy Figures". These are figures that are mass produced in a glossy finish, no shading and are not designed for children or to be played with. Think of Hocker, Imperial, Trophy, etc.

And...Fourth is the "Toy Soldiers". These are figures that were originally designed for children to be played with, like the old original Britains, JoHillCo,
etc.

 

[Andanna]

This is a great thread and mandatory reading for a newcomer to the hobby - I really enjoy iy. Thanks to all. And Ken, please do not even consider cutting your musings short.

 

[4th Hussar]

To my way of thinking there are four general areas of "scale model figures".

First is the "Museum Quality" figure. These are figures that are crafted to be as closely as possible to model the real person and are prefectly done down to the smallest detail.

Second is the "Scale Models". Figures that are mass produced, painted in matte finish, shading to the clothes etc. but not to the level of the "Museum Quality" figure. Think K&C, Honour Bound, etc.

Third is the "Collector Toy Figures". These are figures that are mass produced in a glossy finish, no shading and are not designed for children or to be played with. Think of Hocker, Imperial, Trophy, etc.

And...Fourth is the "Toy Soldiers". These are figures that were originally designed for children to be played with, like the old original Britains, JoHillCo,
etc.

At one time there was a distinction between "old" and "new" toy soldiers, basically lead toy soldiers and post lead.

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

Hello All!
It has been a long day of chasing down historical details in real world use, and how to simulate the same subjects in miniature. I think I have figured it out between some sculpting and phone calls however.

Back on the subject Historical Miniatures and Toy Soldiers, we were talking about the wide variety of scales and styles of pre-decorated figures and vehicles in Category B. Most of these share some common considerations that may not apply to the models produced in the A Category.

Some of these common factors we identified for commercially produced products include:
1. Marketability
2. Ease of Manufacture
3. Price Point
4. Durability
5. Ease of packaging and transport.

1 and 2 have been covered so we move on to 3... Price Point.
Although there is a wide range of products and a wide range of prices, each one has a target audience with defined expectations. Virtually all of these different products and price points will still require the same decisions to meet the various companies financial goals.

Often the first question that will cross a manufacturers mind when thinking about a new product is: If I produced this, how much would this item cost at Point of Purchase and would there be a market for it at that price?
Sometimes the enthusiasm for a possible new product is dampened by a quick calculation of known costs with a familiar process.
So in some ways the calculated end price, or Manufacturers Suggest Retail Price (MSRP) is often the determining factor in a products development, or the death of it on the drawing board.

If an idea for a product gets a green light for development, it usually has the estimated costs penciled in for each step of the process to insure that the projected MSRP is realized.

There are many decisions that must be made during the development, manufacturing and package design of the product to insure that the MSRP is acceptable to the market identified.
There can be an almost endless number of decisions to make during this process...

Here are some of the typical development considerations...
What is the projected budget for development?
How will the product be made?
How much research must be done and who will do it?
Will the research require travel?
Will the product require engineering drawings to be made?
Will it require a prototype to be made?
Will the prototype need duplication?
Will a decoration master be needed for the factory?

and then there are the manufacturing decisions...
What is the projected budget for manufacturing?
Where will it be made?
What kind of materials can I use and what are the pros and cons?
Are there any cost saving methods that can be employed in any procedure?
Is there any cost advantage to the size of the production run?
Is there an advantage or disadvantage to a particular time of year?

An even packaging decisions must be made...
What is the targeted cost of the package?
Is there an advantage in cost of one style over another?
Will the style chosen project the proper image for the product at the right cost?

And the list goes on. At every point the costs are factored and if something goes over budget there is usually an attempt to bring the costs back into line.
This isn't always possible however and the end numbers must be calculated to arrive at an adjusted price at Point of Purchase.

Hopefully I can wrap up 4 & 5 tomorrow. I really think these last two points will help make sense of these ramblings.

All the Best!
Ken

 

[marco55]

Ken,
Many,many thanks for this very interesting thread,especially knowing how busy you are.Have a good night.
Mark

 

[Ken & Ericka Osen/H&A Studio]

Hi All!
Well, we have just finished packing up everything so we can leave bright and early for the Civil War event at Conner Prairie Indiana this weekend. It looks like W. Britain will be at the East Coast, the Mid West and the West Coast all at the same time. It should be fun to compare notes when we all get back.

The next two areas I want to talk about are the product durability and packaging requirements.
From my position, these subjects will be important enough for me to postpone my postings until I return.
Sorry for the delay, but the day has been consumed by many other tasks and loose ends.

For those of you that have visited, thank you very much.

All the Best!
Ken

 

[Louis A. Cortez]

Thank you for your posts. I find them quite interesting. Please continue when you return. I await your future posts.

 

[1879fanatic]

Ken,
Patiently waiting #4 and #5. Have fun on your trip and may it be filled with fortune and prosperity!
Mike

 

[OzDigger]

I was watching the Third Series of "Callan" last nite and in the episode "Act of Kindness" he insisted on his figures being called Model Soldiers rather than Toy Soldiers - and who would argue with Mr Callan The above episode featured a War Room in a house owned by a Company Director where Callan and the owner played several Napoleonic war games.