JJD Second World War Butch O’Hare F4F Wildcat & Deck Crew (1 Viewer)

[tmanthegreat]

I recently acquired this gem from Treefrog with some Rivet Rewards points and got the deck crew figures from a couple other retailers. It took me a while to make the plunge on the JJD Wildcat, but I’m glad I did as it’s a beautiful and highly detailed model. The working features are great and I really like the use of magnets to hold the landing gear pieces in place. As an early WWII US Navy aircraft, the Butch O’Hare Wildcat was a nice compromise in terms of markings, being an WWII aircraft that still retains some of the prewar flash. The JJD Wildcat is definitely a model worth getting...

I’ve included some photos of my little carrier deck setup with the Wildcat and deck crew as well as some detail shots of the Wildcat in case there are some other undecided collectors. My base is homemade using styrene plastic sheets. It is not as fancy as the JJD carrier deck bases, but cost at least $80 less. Enjoy!

 

[zblang]

Looks great - thanks for sharing

 

[egonzinc]

Looks great. Very nice and ingenious job on the deck!

 

[joesgis]

The plane is awesome and so is your deck- great job!! The photos are really nice and makes me want the plane even though I don't collect planes.

Joe

 

[cnq]

Love the plane and figures. You did excellent job on the carrier base.

 

[Larry Allen]

Wonderful display as well as your photography skills.

I have been fortunate to collect all of John's WWII planes, but think that this is my favorite. :rolleyes2:

As mentioned your deck work is perfect.
How //// did you get the white flight deck markings so perfect; no bleeding in the groves and sharp edges?

Well done.

--- LaRRy

 

[BHogan]

Great work! Your deck scene looks awesome. Thanks for sharing.

Brendan

 

[wwiibuff]

That is a great display! Model deck and figures look fantastic.

One question for all, did O'hare's "White 15" have a star on the upper right and lower left as depicted by JJD? Most of what I can find indicate that this particular F4F-3 did not.

 

[ivanmoe]

That is a great display! Model deck and figures look fantastic.

One question for all, did O'hare's "White 15" have a star on the upper right and lower left as depicted by JJD? Most of what I can find indicate that this particular F4F-3 did not.

Hi Duke,

Early in the war, Navy aviation had a horrific problem with fratricide between AA gunners and it's aircraft in the PTO. In an attempt to quell the problem, they began to remark planes to make the national insignia more discernible to gunners on the ground. Through a series of directives, squadrons were ordered to add alternating red and white stripes to aircraft rudders, the number and location of the roundels was changed, and the roundels were finally enlarged considerably. This went on until just after Coral Sea, when the tail stripes were dropped from the rudders and the red discs removed from the roundels. Finally, NONE of these marking schemes was uniformly adhered to in the first five months of the fighting. The exigencies of war were such that differences were introduced, from station to station, ship to ship, and squadron to squadron.

Here's a pic of O'Hare with a VF-3 Wildcat:



It's not White 15, but there's no way to know if that aircraft was marked up the same way on the same day that the photograph was made. The ad hoc nature of so much of what was going on makes such an assertion simply impossible to confirm. What we do know is that VF-3 aircraft had a total of four roundels on the wings...at some point in time. BTW, there are no photos of O'Hare's aircraft on the day that he flew his MoH mission.

-Moe

 

[Beaufighter]

That is a great display! Model deck and figures look fantastic.

One question for all, did O'hare's "White 15" have a star on the upper right and lower left as depicted by JJD? Most of what I can find indicate that this particular F4F-3 did not.

Forum Squadron Members,

Do a search for the Wildcat at Chicago O’Hare Airport. I think it is in Terminal 2. If I recall correctly it looks to be a pretty remarkable representation of “White F-15” and is an actual Wildcat recovered from a training crash. There is a SBD Dauntless too. Hoping they got it right at O’hare!

Tailwinds,
Marc

 

[tmanthegreat]

Thanks everyone for the kind comments on the photos, as well as the historical reference info!

I made the display base using styrene sheeting that I got at the local hobby store. The lines were done with very careful masking using Tamiya masking tape (which is some of the best tape for painting and masking). Colors were applied using Tamiya Navy Blue and Flat White spray paints. Glad everyone like it!

 

[wwiibuff]

Hi Duke,

Early in the war, Navy aviation had a horrific problem with fratricide between AA gunners and it's aircraft in the PTO. In an attempt to quell the problem, they began to remark planes to make the national insignia more discernible to gunners on the ground. Through a series of directives, squadrons were ordered to add alternating red and white stripes to aircraft rudders, the number and location of the roundels was changed, and the roundels were finally enlarged considerably. This went on until just after Coral Sea, when the tail stripes were dropped from the rudders and the red discs removed from the roundels. Finally, NONE of these marking schemes was uniformly adhered to in the first five months of the fighting. The exigencies of war were such that differences were introduced, from station to station, ship to ship, and squadron to squadron.

Here's a pic of O'Hare with a VF-3 Wildcat:

It's not White 15, but there's no way to know if that aircraft was marked up the same way on the same day that the photograph was made. The ad hoc nature of so much of what was going on makes such an assertion simply impossible to confirm. What we do know is that VF-3 aircraft had a total of four roundels on the wings...at some point in time. BTW, there are no photos of O'Hare's aircraft on the day that he flew his MoH mission.

-Moe

Forum Squadron Members,

Do a search for the Wildcat at Chicago O’Hare Airport. I think it is in Terminal 2. If I recall correctly it looks to be a pretty remarkable representation of “White F-15” and is an actual Wildcat recovered from a training crash. There is a SBD Dauntless too. Hoping they got it right at O’hare!

Tailwinds,
Marc

Marc/Moe, the Wildcat at O'Hare is painted as not having 4 roundels, so would suggest that White-15 did not have the extra roundels.

The decal sheets and references I looked at all suggest that White 15 when flown by O'hare did not have the extra roundels.

There is a famous photo of White 1 and White 13 in flight showing neither of these aircraft with the extra roundels.

It just seems that the consensus is that White 15 would not have had them either.

 

[wwiibuff]

Marc/Moe, the Wildcat at O'Hare is painted as not having 4 roundels, so would suggest that White-15 did not have the extra roundels.

The decal sheets and references I looked at all suggest that White 15 when flown by O'hare did not have the extra roundels.

There is a famous photo of White 1 and White 13 in flight showing neither of these aircraft with the extra roundels.

It just seems that the consensus is that White 15 would not have had them either.

A book I have "The Blue Devils" by Mark Styling & Barrett Tillman, has colour plates of many famous US Pacific aircraft and has both White 13 and White 15, both flown by O'Hare from the USS Lexington. White 13 in April of 1942 and White 15 in February 1942. Both pictures depict the planes as not having the extra roundels.

 

[wwiibuff]

Thanks everyone for the kind comments on the photos, as well as the historical reference info!

I made the display base using styrene sheeting that I got at the local hobby store. The lines were done with very careful masking using Tamiya masking tape (which is some of the best tape for painting and masking). Colors were applied using Tamiya Navy Blue and Flat White spray paints. Glad everyone like it!

Great job! There are things like this that you can do yourself to make a diorama. Thanks for the info on how you did it.

 

[ivanmoe]

Re: JJD Second World War Butch O’Hare F4F Wildcat & Deck Crew

A book I have "The Blue Devils" by Mark Styling & Barrett Tillman, has colour plates of many famous US Pacific aircraft and has both White 13 and White 15, both flown by O'Hare from the USS Lexington. White 13 in April of 1942 and White 15 in February 1942. Both pictures depict the planes as not having the extra roundels.

Duke,

I think that I understand what you're getting at, but you may be misinterpreting what it is that Jenkins has provided us with in the form of ACE-215. What we can say with absolute certainty is that it's NOT intended to be representative of the plane that he flew into combat on his MoH mission. Why? Well, because it has kill markings on the side of the cockpit. So, the model is a replica of a VF-3, F4F-3 operated some time after the 20FEB42 mission. Consider the pic below:



The pic is yet another example of White 7, with the VF-3 marking of "Felix the Cat," just below the windscreen frame. LIFE Magazine dated it April 1, 1942. Clearly, at this point, VF-3 Wildcats were sporting roundels, top/bottom, on both wings. As for the restoration at O'Hare in Chicago, consider the following:



Note the air scoop at the top of the engine-cowling. Problem here is that this isn't the same model of F4F-3 as those being operated by VF-3. It's from a completely different production run, one that arrived AFTER the markings that we're discussing had been discontinued. And, it has the kill-markings on it. So, if this is supposed to be representative of an O'Hare-flown aircraft, it's in the same category as the one that Jenkins offers, a post-mission bird.

That's all. Don't mean to beat a dead-horse. However, I honestly see no problem with ACE-215 as rendered by JJD. Short of employing dated, contemporaneous photos of a discreet subject, I see no way of ensuring that ANY of this stuff is completely accurate in terms of markings, particularly for Navy/PTO planes in the first six months of WW2.

 

[wwiibuff]

Re: JJD Second World War Butch O’Hare F4F Wildcat & Deck Crew

Duke,

I think that I understand what you're getting at, but you may be misinterpreting what it is that Jenkins has provided us with in the form of ACE-215. What we can say with absolute certainty is that it's NOT intended to be representative of the plane that he flew into combat on his MoH mission. Why? Well, because it has kill markings on the side of the cockpit. So, the model is a replica of a VF-3, F4F-3 operated some time after the 20FEB42 mission. Consider the pic below:

View attachment 248163

The pic is yet another example of White 7, with the VF-3 marking of "Felix the Cat," just below the windscreen frame. LIFE Magazine dated it April 1, 1942. Clearly, at this point, VF-3 Wildcats were sporting roundels, top/bottom, on both wings. As for the restoration at O'Hare in Chicago, consider the following:

View attachment 248164

Note the air scoop at the top of the engine-cowling. Problem here is that this isn't the same model of F4F-3 as those being operated by VF-3. It's from a completely different production run, one that arrived AFTER the markings that we're discussing had been discontinued. And, it has the kill-markings on it. So, if this is supposed to be representative of an O'Hare-flown aircraft, it's in the same category as the one that Jenkins offers, a post-mission bird.

That's all. Don't mean to beat a dead-horse. However, I honestly see no problem with ACE-215 as rendered by JJD. Short of employing dated, contemporaneous photos of a discreet subject, I see no way of ensuring that ANY of this stuff is completely accurate in terms of markings, particularly for Navy/PTO planes in the first six months of WW2.

Moe,

I was not implying that the JJD model was a model of when O'hare had his five kills MOH day. Obviously it would have been later because of the 5 kill marks. I just think that most of the "experts" believe that White 15 during the time O'Hare flew it after his MOH day would not have had the extra roundels. Like you say, VF-3 did have planes that had all 4 no question.

The Wildcat in the O'Hare airport is supposed to represent O'Hare's White 15 in markings only. It of course is a different Wildcat than the one O'Hare actually flew.

But as you say, there is no way to confirm whether O'Hare's plane always only had 2 roundels instead of 4, it just seems likely that the consensus is that should be represented with only 2 for some reason. I don't know all the research behind why.

 

[wwiibuff]

White F-1 and White F-13 in flight April, 1942. White F-13 flown by O'Hare

US Navy photo - Second Class H.S. Fawcett photographer April 10, 1942

 

[Beaufighter]

Re: JJD Second World War Butch OÂ’Hare F4F Wildcat & Deck Crew

Moe,

I was not implying that the JJD model was a model of when O'hare had his five kills MOH day. Obviously it would have been later because of the 5 kill marks. I just think that most of the "experts" believe that White 15 during the time O'Hare flew it after his MOH day would not have had the extra roundels. Like you say, VF-3 did have planes that had all 4 no question.

The Wildcat in the O'Hare airport is supposed to represent O'Hare's White 15 in markings only. It of course is a different Wildcat than the one O'Hare actually flew.

But as you say, there is no way to confirm whether O'Hare's plane always only had 2 roundels instead of 4, it just seems likely that the consensus is that should be represented with only 2 for some reason. I don't know all the research behind why.

Duke,

I fully understand where you are coming from and I applaud your efforts! On many occasions I have gone way beyond the call of duty trying to research specific aircraft only to realize that sometimes it is just not possible till an actual picture comes to light. I attended all sorts of ACE Symposiums & Veterans events in the 90’s up until around 2010 only to find that they could not recall or similar. I worried the German WW II ACE Adolf Dickfeld at a Symposium as he said I knew more about the dh98 Mosquito than any other German pilot he knew. He also said that plane scared him. Set up shop most recently at the Museum of Flight Archives with no tangible results regarding my latest quest. Here is a typical transcript below from when I was trying to research various P-38 Lightnings flown by Robin Olds who I had the honor of meeting a couple of times. What lies below is the typical “Rabbit Hole” I willingly jumped into after a solid fifty hours plus of research...

Hi Marc,



Your question has set me quite a task! It is well known that photos of Robin Olds’ Scats are scarcer than hen’s teeth. I have looked through all my sources and have been unable to find any illustrations of Scat III. I did not bother with the Stanaway book, even though I have it, as he very rarely bothers to give serial numbers. For me, the main authority on the 479th FG is the Terry Fairfield Book published by Schiffer, which is the comprehensive history of the unit. As far as the serial numbers are concerned, I am satisfied that the information given on my site is accurate. There is currently no detail on the first Scat other than it was coded L2-W and you are most likely correct in assuming that this would have been OD/NG finish. The attrition rate of P-38s was quite high in the ETO, running at about 25% so there was quite a turnover.

Scat II was without doubt 43-28707 as seen in the photo that you included. I have attached the crash shot of this a/c and assume this is the one you are thinking of. This crash was a take-off crash due to engine failure and occurred on 5 July 1944 at Wattisham with Carl L Peterson at the controls. (Not Fleming and Not 10 August) As can be seen from both photos, this was in NMF with the geometric symbol on the tail. The replacement (Scat III) was 43-28341 and this is the one that was lost on 10 August with Fleming being KIA at Romery in France (MACR 7622).

So, as far as I can see, all the illustrations etc that you have looked at are relying purely on conjecture. The only one that we can be certain of is Scat II 43-28707.

Looking at things logically, Scat III had a lower serial # than Scat II being some 366 machines earlier off of the production line. It is a fact that the 479th had some “hand-me-down” P-38s and they did have a mixture of camouflaged and NMF a/c. So, without photo evidence for Scat III, all we can do is to look at adjacent serial numbers, as the natural metal finish was a production line change. In this respect, I have a photo of 43-28301 (40 machines earlier) and 43-28465 (124 machines later) and both of these are NMF. Conclusion therefore is that if I were a gambler, my money would be on Scat III also being NMF. The style of lettering again being conjecture, as would be “III”, “3” or “3rd”. Turning now to the red rudder seen on a couple of your illustrations. The 434th did paint their rudders red and the date given for this is “after August 1944”. Unfortunately, the exact date is unknown. Seeing as Scat III went down at the beginning of August, I would guess that once again, the red rudder is either conjecture, wishful thinking, poor research or most probably, poetic licence!

Hope that this is useful to you but I’m sorry that Scat III must to a great extent, remain a mystery until a photo comes to light.

Sincerely

Peter

PS – Concerning the Chris Davey artwork, I’m always dubious about the authenticity when the artist insists on showing the wire antenna.
NO 8th (or 9th) fighters had the wires, as the US radio sets were HF and they had to change in the ETO in order to communicate with the RAF who used VHF. The pole antenna was quite adequate for that purpose rendering the wires redundant! Shows a lack of knowledge in their subject again.

 

[wwiibuff]

Re: JJD Second World War Butch OÂ’Hare F4F Wildcat & Deck Crew

Duke,

I fully understand where you are coming from and I applaud your efforts! On many occasions I have gone way beyond the call of duty trying to research specific aircraft only to realize that sometimes it is just not possible till an actual picture comes to light. I attended all sorts of ACE Symposiums & Veterans events in the 90’s up until around 2010 only to find that they could not recall or similar. I worried the German WW II ACE Adolf Dickfeld at a Symposium as he said I knew more about the dh98 Mosquito than any other German pilot he knew. He also said that plane scared him. Set up shop most recently at the Museum of Flight Archives with no tangible results regarding my latest quest. Here is a typical transcript below from when I was trying to research various P-38 Lightnings flown by Robin Olds who I had the honor of meeting a couple of times. What lies below is the typical “Rabbit Hole” I willingly jumped into after a solid fifty hours plus of research...

Thanks for the comment and information Mark.

I guess my whole point of all was to see if there was any evidence concerning White F-15 since all the examples I could find were different than the JJD model. I was thinking someone might know something definite on the subject, but I guess no one will ever know for sure.

My guess is all the experts use this US Navy photo from April 1942 to assume that White F-15 would be marked the same way.

 

[Beaufighter]

Re: JJD Second World War Butch O’Hare F4F Wildcat & Deck Crew

Thanks for the comment and information Mark.

I guess my whole point of all was to see if there was any evidence concerning White F-15 since all the examples I could find were different than the JJD model. I was thinking someone might know something definite on the subject, but I guess no one will ever know for sure.

My guess is all the experts use this US Navy photo from April 1942 to assume that White F-15 would be marked the same way.

Putting this on my research radar and photo RECCE Mission. Happy hunting!