K&C Dragoon a Pied (1 Viewer)

[oberstoskar]

Guys, do you have more historical info on this 16th Dragoon a Pied?

Also, I think K&C forgot to give us a bugler

 

[Evzone]

Shouldn't they have horses.......? Pray there must be a Napoleonic buff out in cyberspace to enlighten us?

 

[Spitfrnd]

Shouldn't they have horses.......? Pray there must be a Napoleonic buff out in cyberspace to enlighten us?

Well they believed that should have horses but unfortunately for them, there were not enough available at that time. I think these are supposed to represent the 16th Dragoons of the 2nd regiment at Strasbourg, which was assigned to the Imperial Guard. This was part of a brief experiment to take advantage of otherwise wasted manpower. Two regiments were formed in September of 1806. Fortunately for those affected, these troops were remounted in October and November with captured Prussian and Saxon horses. This was supposedly the last experiment with foot dragoons, who were notably ill tempered and poor performing. Some references indicate their use as late as 1808 but others, such as Bukhari in Napoleon's Dragoons and Lancers, claim these references are based on faulty sources.

 

[Olly Read]

Well they believed that should have horses but unfortunately for them, there were not enough available at that time. I think these are supposed to represent the 16th Dragoons of the 2nd regiment at Strasbourg, which was assigned to the Imperial Guard. This was part of a brief experiment to take advantage of otherwise wasted manpower. Two regiments were formed in September of 1806. Fortunately for those affected, these troops were remounted in October and November with captured Prussian and Saxon horses. This was supposedly the last experiment with foot dragoons, who were notably ill tempered and poor performing. Some references indicate their use as late as 1808 but others, such as Bukhari in Napoleon's Dragoons and Lancers, claim these references are based on faulty sources.

Thats really interesting Spitfrnd, I was thinking they look like cavalary but without the horses but it cannot be! Does anybody else have anything else on this regiment they think might be of interest to the forum? I was wondering how Andy comes up with all these imaginative poses for his troops time after time? Does anybody know? I mean he cannot sit there all month and draw all these figures can he or maybe he has a team of artists who help him? I remember Ken from EOI giving a talk on the forum about how he did it - maybe we could get Andy to spill the beans as well?

 

[Panda]

Ospreys men at Arms Napoleons Dragoons and Lancers mentions them briefly I believe my Nephew has my copy but I am almost certain there is an online resource. I believe they would carry there riding boots and mount captured enemy horses if required and were possibly returned to their original regiments or absorbed into Grenadiers a Pied perhaps. Not much information around post 1807 not sure if they served at Austerlitz or Waterloo. uniforms similar to Empress Dragoons sorry but all I have form memory.

Lost interest in K&C Napoleonics collecting vehicles and Limited edition stuff only.

 

[Olly Read]

Ospreys men at Arms Napoleons Dragoons and Lancers mentions them briefly I believe my Nephew has my copy but I am almost certain there is an online resource. I believe they would carry there riding boots and mount captured enemy horses if required and were possibly returned to their original regiments or absorbed into Grenadiers a Pied perhaps. Not much information around post 1807 not sure if they served at Austerlitz or Waterloo. uniforms similar to Empress Dragoons sorry but all I have form memory.

Lost interest in K&C Napoleonics collecting vehicles and Limited edition stuff only.

Thanks Panda

 

[Spitfrnd]

Ospreys men at Arms Napoleons Dragoons and Lancers mentions them briefly I believe my Nephew has my copy but I am almost certain there is an online resource. I believe they would carry there riding boots and mount captured enemy horses if required and were possibly returned to their original regiments or absorbed into Grenadiers a Pied perhaps. Not much information around post 1807 not sure if they served at Austerlitz or Waterloo. uniforms similar to Empress Dragoons sorry but all I have form memory.
....

Yes I was reading from Napoleons Dragoons and Lancers when I made the first post. As I noted, after late 1806, they are described as mounted Dragoons again. Apparently there were no further foot Dragoon experiments. Of course mounted Dragoons could dismount and fight with their carbines and there were mounted Dragoons throughout the war.

 

[Mascleo]

Yes I was reading from Napoleons Dragoons and Lancers when I made the first post. As I noted, after late 1806, they are described as mounted Dragoons again. Apparently there were no further foot Dragoon experiments. Of course mounted Dragoons could dismount and fight with their carbines and there were mounted Dragoons throughout the war.

Thanks for the info Spitfrnd!!

The sets that K&C produced are foot Dragoons, not dismounted dragoons. There are some differences in the uniforms/equipment. Notice that the mounted Dragoons all wore boots, while infantry wear shoes and gaiters. The mounted Dragoons did not wear large backpacks but instead had packs attached to the saddles. Plus, infantry have full size rifles with bayonets, not cabines. It appears that the K&C French are true infantry foot Dragoons, not just dismounted Dragoons.

So, that will mean they can only be historically correctly use in pre-1806 Battles? ... Not that I do not mind creating inaccurate dioramas for fun.

 

[petebuster1]

Thanks for the info Spitfrnd!!

The sets that K&C produced are foot Dragoons, not dismounted dragoons. There are some differences in the uniforms/equipment. Notice that the mounted Dragoons all wore boots, while infantry wear shoes and gaiters. The mounted Dragoons did not wear large backpacks but instead had packs attached to the saddles. Plus, infantry have full size rifles with bayonets, not cabines. It appears that the K&C French are true infantry foot Dragoons, not just dismounted Dragoons.

So, that will mean they can only be historically correctly use in pre-1806 Battles? ... Not that I do not mind creating inaccurate dioramas for fun.

I would think they are meant to be foot dragoons,unfortunately with a few inaccuracies

 

[nysoldiers]

This was a "curious" release to me.................
K&C's first Napoleonic matte releases were for the "Penninsula" campaign and then Waterloo. Obviously the first releases could also be used for Waterloo.
This release, albeit interesting doesn't fit in with either period nor with any other major campaign. If you are a Napoleonic purist these Dragoons must stand alone with no compatriots or opponents.
Personally I think more French line infantry and artillery were desired by collectors.
Variety is great but I will pass on these.

The landing craft looks great.

Just some constructive criticism!

 

[Spitfrnd]

Thanks for the info Spitfrnd!!

The sets that K&C produced are foot Dragoons, not dismounted dragoons. There are some differences in the uniforms/equipment. Notice that the mounted Dragoons all wore boots, while infantry wear shoes and gaiters. The mounted Dragoons did not wear large backpacks but instead had packs attached to the saddles. Plus, infantry have full size rifles with bayonets, not cabines. It appears that the K&C French are true infantry foot Dragoons, not just dismounted Dragoons.

So, that will mean they can only be historically correctly use in pre-1806 Battles? ... Not that I do not mind creating inaccurate dioramas for fun.

Mascleo I know these are foot Dragoons, as I noted in my first post giving their history. I only mentioned the dismounted Dragoons since this unit again became a mounted unit and would, as you note, return to its traditional uniform and weapons. According to my noted source, they are were only in this foot role for a few months, although there were apparently a few other foot dragoon units tried previously. I believe these were formed in 1805 and disbanded in 1806.

 

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

Yes, you’re right… I did forget the bugler!!! Since they were on foot I did think a drummer would be more appropriate however, I like the bugler idea, so, K&C will produce a marching Dragoon bugler with our next Napoleonic release. Thanks for the suggestion!

Re “Petebuster’s” comment, “I would think they are meant to be foot dragoons, unfortunately with a few inaccuracies.” Please, Pete, avail us of your knowledge… where did we go wrong?

Also to our friend “NYSoldiers” there’s nothing in the slightest “curious” about our Napoleonic releases… Our series is called “The Age of Napoleon” and covers approximately a 15 year span from 1800-1815. Where does it say we can only produce either Peninsula or Waterloo? I and many other Napoleonic collectors like all of it… not just the Peninsula War or the 100 Days Campaign.

As for collectors’ desires for more French Line Infantry or Artillery… well, that might or might not be true. How any of us forms an opinion is purely subjective but at K&C we base, at least some of our releases, on dealer and collector feedback as well as our own assessment on what else is available in the market-place. Put it into the pot… stir well… and see what bubbles to the surface! Hope this helps.

Thanks again for all your input…
Best wishes and happy collecting!
Andy C.

 

[OldDragon]

Hi Guys,

Yes, you’re right… I did forget the bugler!!! Since they were on foot I did think a drummer would be more appropriate however, I like the bugler idea, so, K&C will produce a marching Dragoon bugler with our next Napoleonic release. Thanks for the suggestion!

.....

Thanks again for all your input…
Best wishes and happy collecting!
Andy C.

.... alreadi, reinforcements on the horizon.

dare I ask for another mounted example of these dragoons

OD

 

[nysoldiers]

To Andy,
My "curious" comment was meant to illustrate that most K&C series fit into a campaign or time period. These can most often be combined into great dioramas and displays. Of course we welcome Napoleonic pieces from the entire era but it would be advantageous to "mix and match".
Certainly line infantry and artillery could cover your current releases with Russian campaigns and the last 100 days. In addtion they could open up Lepzig and the Battle for France.
Early Empire and the Egyptian campaigns would also be unique as most makers concentrate on post 1812 campaigns and battles.

I just felt that the Dragoons would be "lonely" and not add to any of our expanding dioramas.
Of course future addtions to that time period would help out immeasurably.
I hope all the releases sell well and I am still a consistent buyer.

 

[Capitolron]

Good Morning Gentlemen - I am back from Jazz Fest and what did I find ... NAPOLEONICS ! in the new dispatches - oh WOW !

These Dragoons are wonderful - foot Dragoons release is a wonderful idea and it adds a great aspect to all of our Napoleonic Collections. I believe we need things that are little different than the just same old - same old. These fine figures fit the bill - for me.

Here are a couple of references of dismounted Dragoons for those who are interested - and YES, there were dismounted Dragoons in Napoleon's army - these sections describe that:

1.) Napoleon could mount only part of his dragoons. That fact, combined with Napoleon's modern ideas of combining fire power and mobility, led him to the conclusion that units of foot dragoons should be formed. For his planned cross-Channel invasion of England, he organized two divisions of dismounted dragoons. They were put into infantry-style shoes, gaiters and packs. They also received drums to supplement their trumpets. Colonel Elting writes: "The assignement was sensible, but troopers caught up in the shuffle remembered that veteran dragoons, who hadn't walked farther in years than the distance from their barracks to the nearest bar, ended up in the dismounted units, while their mounts were assigned to raw recruits. The results were rough on everybody: hospitals filled up with spavined veterans, recruits got saddle sores. Also, J.A. Oyon wrote gleefully, matters turned ugly when mounted and dismounted elements of several regiments bivouaced together. The limping veterans crowded over to check on their old horses and found them neglected, sore-backed, and lame.
Blood flowed freely, if only from rookies' noses."
The dragoons were trained in infantry and cavalry duties and for this reason their horsemanship "was wobbly" and their swordsmanship was not of the highest order. In the first phase of Napoleonic Wars they served on the primary theater of war, in Central Europe, charging in numerous battles and skirmishes. In November 1805 the dragoon brigade under Sebastiani took 2,000 prisoners at Pohrlitz.


2.) Each of Napoleon's Dragoon regiments comprised 54 mounted and 36 dismounted troopers. This regulation existed solely because of the unavailability of sufficient suitable horses under the empire. On many seperate occasions, these dismounted elements were grouped together into a distinctive Dragoon division. The First was at Bolougne on the eve of the proposed invasion of England in 1803 and the second occasion at Strasbourg in 1805 in preparation for the coming war with Austria.
During the Italian campaign of 1805 a temporary battalion of foot Dragoons were attached to General Verdier's 2nd division and the following year Napoleon ordered two regiments to be formed and attached to the Imperial Guard Grenadiers and foot Chasseurs respectively. During the Peninsula campaign a detachment of the 9th regt was dismounted before the Battle of Talaviera in 1809 and for want of suitable mounts, elements of the 10th and 11th regiments were dismounted after the action at Alba-de-Tormes.


As for the issue of FRENCH LINE ARTILLERY - well all good things in good time ! I am sure King & Country knows the need for more French Artillery and we shall see it soon.

I love the release - but, actually - I LOVE ALL NAPOLEONIC RELEASES - LOL - this one get a big thumbs up in my book !

Time to start making room for some new troops !

Ron

 

[Cyber Field Marshall]

Leave it to the French to have their soldiers dressed in PINK!!! They're always so stylish. Seriously love the new Napoleonics, will definitely pick some up for my limited collection.
I'm a diehard WWII collector however I have gotten into the Napoleonics in a modest way because of the wonderful pagentry and colour of the uniforms. They make for great conversation pieces even for people who don't know much about the era ( like myself ). Great job K&C, keep it coming.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Yes Ron, I think it has been pretty well acknowledged here that there were many instances of dismounted Dragoons. As far as I can find, dismounted Dragoons had their regular Dragoon Uniforms and fought with carbines. The Dragoons a Pied had the uniforms shown in the Dispatches and fought with muskets, also as shown in the dispatches. As we both noted, the Dragoons a Pied existed in 1805 to 1806. I found that source that you quoted from but it does not really clarify the point. Do you have a source that shows dismounted Dragoons fighting where you noted and dressed and armed like the Dragoons a Pied?

 

[Capitolron]

Yes Ron, I think it has been pretty well acknowledged here that there were many instances of dismounted Dragoons. As far as I can find, dismounted Dragoons had their regular Dragoon Uniforms and fought with carbines. The Dragoons a Pied had the uniforms shown in the Dispatches and fought with muskets, also as shown in the dispatches. As we both noted, the Dragoons a Pied existed in 1805 to 1806. I found that source that you quoted from but it does not really clarify the point. Do you have a source that shows dismounted Dragoons fighting where you noted and dressed and armed like the Dragoons a Pied?

Actually, I have a great Dragoon Book - I have to find it ! I believe K&C is on good ground with the release - I seem to remember the early part of the Napoleonic period where Dragoon units were being assembled so quickly that "Horse Power" was not available and foot units were formed. It was believed that the training they had in their Dragoon training would give other units an advantage in close combat situations.

As stated in the quotes - the other reason was the French Armies were capturing so many enemy supplies in conflicts - it was Napoleon's belife the enemy would provide for the French Empire in their Calvary needs ... I love the way this guy thinks ! Really interesting was these units were also used as forward raiding parities to find those supplies for them selves and the French Army.

Once I find this great reference book I have - I will post it.

 

[oberstoskar]

Thanks Andy for listening and replying.

I recall that in Sharpe series, at the Battle of Talaviera Dragoon a Pied were shown (although in red instead of pink)

Constructive criticism is good

 

[Olly Read]

Good Morning Gentlemen - I am back from Jazz Fest and what did I find ... NAPOLEONICS ! in the new dispatches - oh WOW !


"Here are a couple of references of dismounted Dragoons for those who are interested - and YES, there were dismounted Dragoons in Napoleon's army - these sections describe that:

1.) Napoleon could mount only part of his dragoons. That fact, combined with Napoleon's modern ideas of combining fire power and mobility, led him to the conclusion that units of foot dragoons should be formed. For his planned cross-Channel invasion of England, he organized two divisions of dismounted dragoons. They were put into infantry-style shoes, gaiters and packs. They also received drums to supplement their trumpets. Colonel Elting writes: "The assignement was sensible, but troopers caught up in the shuffle remembered that veteran dragoons, who hadn't walked farther in years than the distance from their barracks to the nearest bar, ended up in the dismounted units, while their mounts were assigned to raw recruits. The results were rough on everybody: hospitals filled up with spavined veterans, recruits got saddle sores. Also, J.A. Oyon wrote gleefully, matters turned ugly when mounted and dismounted elements of several regiments bivouaced together. The limping veterans crowded over to check on their old horses and found them neglected, sore-backed, and lame.
Blood flowed freely, if only from rookies' noses."
The dragoons were trained in infantry and cavalry duties and for this reason their horsemanship "was wobbly" and their swordsmanship was not of the highest order. In the first phase of Napoleonic Wars they served on the primary theater of war, in Central Europe, charging in numerous battles and skirmishes. In November 1805 the dragoon brigade under Sebastiani took 2,000 prisoners at Pohrlitz."



Thanks for all this information Ron and taking the time to post it for fellow members like myself who are pretty ignorant of Napoleonic matters. I maybe come a convert eventually to this era and appreciate your eforts.
Regards Olly