King Tiger Colors (1 Viewer)

[katana]

Three scales and three camouflage patterns. Left to right: Minichamps 1/35 with Can Do Panzer Ace 50 mm figure. 21st Century 1/30 with NMA 60 mm figure. Vs Tank 1/24 with Del Prado 70 mm figure. The size difference between the three scales is interesting as are the color variations.

Which King Tiger has the most accurate colors?

 

[Ivanhoe]

Really like that last photo !

Thank you for posting.

 

[Baymax]

I like the dunkelgelb on the larger King Tiger and probably the overall paint schem best. The camouflage dotting on the middle tank is the better. people do continue to do these as circles when they are not done that way. The worst is the other ambush camo version on the smaller king Tiger which has far too many spots and colour palate which is way off for my liking

 

[WesternOutlaw]

Wow! Cool post. It's neat seeing the various scales/makes. I'm not sure about the color question, but I think I like the 21st Century version.

Let me add one more to the mix, a 1/32 battery powered version (pictured with Oryon figures):


Somewhere in Normandy by Western Outlaw, on Flickr


Ardennes Offensive by Western Outlaw, on Flickr


Lair of the Tiger by Western Outlaw, on Flickr

 

[Baymax]

Now they are not very nice figures. I had not heard of Oryon before.

 

[WesternOutlaw]

Now they are not very nice figures. I had not heard of Oryon before.

Really; I started collecting a few years back (before I discovered King & Country). They come in 4-packs; designed in Italy and manufactured in China. I have a a little collection for my 1/32 scale vehicles (Forces of Valor and Ultimate Soldier). I esp. like their N. African figures:


Ramcke Brigade with Opel Blitz Cargo Truck by Western Outlaw, on Flickr

My apologies Katana; not trying to get off topic.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I don't see any issues with the colors / paint scheme on this Collector's Showcase KT, which is on the CS Thread.

Wayne

 

[katana]

I agree Wayne. I think Brian is dead on with the colors. The three main colors even when factory applied could vary in saturation. Sunlight would start to fade the colors amost immediatly. One post criticised my 21st Century Panzer IV colors. The red brown was too red. The Germans started to use the Red Primer instead of Rotbraun because it was available, even though it was a bit more red.

The Dunkelgleb went through three iterations during the war. The first version was a sand color designed for Tunisia; but also used in Southern Russia. The next version was Dunkelgleb nach Muster; a version of Armor Yellow. The third version was a pale Yellow with a Green/Grey tone. Google Dunkelgleb and select images and you will see a range of 4 to 6 colors all called the same thing! Field applied colors had a wide range depending on what thinner was used, Gasoline, Oil, Water etc.

 

[katana]

I don't see any issues with the colors / paint scheme on this Collector's Showcase KT, which is on the CS Thread.

Wayne

The TCS King Tiger colors match the Bovington and Munster Museum King Tiger restorations pretty closely IMO. Also the color chart for RAL 8012 Rotbrun, RAL 6003 Olivgrun and RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Katana, Some very sharp photos of this beast....The King Tiger :salute::

Wayne

 

[katana]

Wayne I cannot take credit for the photos I just grabbed them off the web and posted them for reference.

A previous post on this thread suggested that TCS did not use the right color of brown on the King Tiger. I disagree and below I have posted the relevant RAL colors for reference. The Germans used two hues of brown on Panzers. RAL 8017 Schokolade Brun and RAL 8012 Rot Brun. Late in the war supplies of Rot Brun were depleted and RAL 3009 was substituted. RAL 3009 is classified as a Red Hue and was the primer used on most Panzers and became the base coat for a time late in the war. Ralcolorchart.com is an invaluable resource for color accuracy determination.

The photo of the King Tiger shows RAL 8017 and The Jagdpanther shown in the same photo has an example of RAL 3009 Oxid Rot. Despite negative comments about the Bovington Museums choice of colors for the restoration of Panzers, I consider them to be reasonably accurate considering the war was 70 years ago and not a lot of color film was exposed on the battlefield. I think the previous photos I posted of the Munster Museum Tiger I and Tiger II shows that Bovingtons color choices were just as good.

 

[katana]

Wayne; Minichamps Panzer models use well researched colors based upon actual historic vehicles. The Panther G with a splinter camouflage pattern in Oxid Rot, Olivgrun and Dunkelgelb is an accurate representation of a Panther on the Oder Front 1945.

The Tiger I has a unique camouflage pattern of Rotbrun, Olivgrun and Dunkelgelb. The Sd.Kfz 251 has a typical camouflage pattern of Schokoladbrun, Olivgrun and Dunkelgelb.

The Munster Museum Tiger I is a classic example of Schocoladbrun with Olivgrun and Dunkelgelb. I should have included this photo in my prior post as I forgot to include an example of Schocoladbraun on a vehicle.

The three colors are all quite different and like Dunkelgelb changed during WW II. The Oxid Rot was mainly used as a primer in the interior of the Panzer and under the Dunkelgrau or Dunkelgelb base coat. The Oxid Rot was substituted for Rotbrun when supplies were depleted. The nearest common examples of Oxid Rot is Hull Red and Rotbrun is very close to Tuscan; both of which are common model paints in Acrylic or Enamel.

 

[Hunter Rose]

below I have posted the relevant RAL colors for reference. The Germans used two hues of brown on Panzers. RAL 8017 Schokolade Brun and RAL 8012 Rot Brun.

This is incorrect.

The two hued distinction between Rotbraun and Schokoladenbraun is a post war distinction. During WW2 there was only one color. RAL8017 Rotbraun. The RAL charts were redone after the war and the colors are not the same.

Depending on how it is thinned/applied and in what light it is viewed it can look more red or more brown.

Here's some pics to illustrate. The same vehicles with pics taken by the same camera/film but in different lighting. You can see that Rotbraun can come across looking differently based on the envrionment.

 

[katana]

The RAL system was established in 1928 and revised in 1930. The RAL color classifications today are cross referenced to previos RAL numbers.

Where you stipulate only one Brown was used RAL 8017; T. Jentz & H. Doyle classify that Brown as a Red Brown and classify RAL 8012 as Oxide Red, effectivly stateing that two Brown hues were in use at the time.

Do you agree with Jentz & Doyle that both RAL 8012 & RAL 8017 were in use and classified at that time as Brown hues?

Modern RAL classification of oxide red is RAL 3009; which is considered a Red hue. I do not understand why Jentz & Doyle would classify it as a Brown.

Jentz & Doyle explicitly state that the Squadron Panzer Colors and Osprey books are all in error as regards the correct colors used; do you agree with this assessment?

The modern designation of colors used in German Armor Camouflage is an approximation and photos from the period only add to the confusion, as a photographs colors shift and fade with age. The formulations for the paint in use at the time would be the best means of replicating the actual colors IMO. The RAL cross references are also of great value in approximating the actual colors in use.

This is incorrect.

The two hued distinction between Rotbraun and Schokoladenbraun is a post war distinction. During WW2 there was only one color. RAL8017 Rotbraun. The RAL charts were redone after the war and the colors are not the same.

Depending on how it is thinned/applied and in what light it is viewed it can look more red or more brown.

Here's some pics to illustrate. The same vehicles with pics taken by the same camera/film but in different lighting. You can see that Rotbraun can come across looking differently based on the envrionment.

 

[Hunter Rose]

Where you stipulate only one Brown was used RAL 8017; T. Jentz & H. Doyle classify that Brown as a Red Brown and classify RAL 8012 as Oxide Red, effectivly stateing that two Brown hues were in use at the time.

Do you agree with Jentz & Doyle that both RAL 8012 & RAL 8017 were in use and classified at that time as Brown hues?

What I said was incorrect was your statement that RAL8012 Rotbraun and RAL 8017 Schokoladenbraun were two distinct hues of camo colors used during WW2. That is wrong, the only camo color was RAL8017 ROtbraun.

Now you try and act like your statement was correct by switching to RAL8017 Rotbraun and RAL8012 Red-Oxide Primer. In WW2 RAL8017 was the camo color and RAL8012 was the primer. They are separate and distinct.

Primer and camo paint have two different purposes. Just because RAL8012 was used as a base coat and not completely painted over does not make RAL8012 a camo color. Everything I've ever read from Jentz/Doyle states that.

 

[katana]

I disagree with the contention that RAL 8012 Rotbrun is also RAL 3009 Oxidrot. When Rotbrun supplies were depleted Oxidrot was substituted; which means two seperate colors were involved. Oxidrot RAL 3009 is a Red hue not a Brown hue. Until formulations or paint samples/chips are identified the actual colors will be in contention. Schokoladebrun and Rotbrun were colors in common use and if they were not distinct colors why would two entirely different names be used?
Why would RAL cross reference two differnt colors; if in fact they were the same color? Many questions few answers!

RAL 3009 Oxidrot was the principle color used in several splinter pattern camoufalge schemes used late in the war. Given that usage, it was obviously considered a camouflage color by the Panzerwaffe.

Another consideration not addressed by Jentz & Doyle was the use of captured paint stores. Russian Green and Brown paint was captured and used as needed on the Ost Front. The same probably happened France. Use of captured Artillery & Panzers was common practice as was use of captured stores of paint, fuel, oil etc.

Panzer colors continue to be an interesting field for research.

 

[Hunter Rose]

I disagree with the contention that RAL 8012 Rotbrun is also RAL 3009 Oxidrot. When Rotbrun supplies were depleted Oxidrot was substituted; which means two seperate colors were involved. Oxidrot RAL 3009 is a Red hue not a Brown hue. Until formulations or paint samples/chips are identified the actual colors will be in contention. Schokoladebrun and Rotbrun were colors in common use and if they were not distinct colors why would two entirely different names be used?
Why would RAL cross reference two differnt colors; if in fact they were the same color? Many questions few answers!

RAL 3009 Oxidrot was the principle color used in several splinter pattern camoufalge schemes used late in the war. Given that usage, it was obviously considered a camouflage color by the Panzerwaffe.

Another consideration not addressed by Jentz & Doyle was the use of captured paint stores. Russian Green and Brown paint was captured and used as needed on the Ost Front. The same probably happened France. Use of captured Artillery & Panzers was common practice as was use of captured stores of paint, fuel, oil etc.

Panzer colors continue to be an interesting field for research.

I don't know how to be any clearer. You keep talking about Schokoladenbraun as a distinct color. There was no such thing during WW2. Schokoladenbraun did not exist. There was no such thing. There was only RAL8017 Rotbraun as a camo color during WW2. RAL8012 during WW2 was the red primer.

You seem to be confusing the RAL numbers/colors of today with those of WW2. It doesn't matter what the current RAL system says a color is. The RAL system was redone post WW2 with no regard for the previous system, so comparing the RAL numbers from the two different periods is pointless.

Since you quote Jentz/Doyle, why not read what they say about camo colors (SPOILER: It is exactly what I have told you twice now).

http://www.missing-lynx.com/panzer_facts.htm

 

[katana]

I have read the Jentz & Doyle article cited, they made a number of assertions without any evidence to validate them. They claimed respected sources were in error without any proof i.e. Squadron & Osprey. They did not produce a single paint chip, paint formulation or documentation from the period to validate their claims. A theory must be supported by evidence; that is the scientific method. I find it illogical that Schokoladebrun, Rotbrun and Oxidrot are all the same color.

 

[Baymax]

I have read the Jentz & Doyle article cited, they made a number of assertions without any evidence to validate them. They claimed respected sources were in error without any proof i.e. Squadron & Osprey. They did not produce a single paint chip, paint formulation or documentation from the period to validate their claims. A theory must be supported by evidence; that is the scientific method. I find it illogical that Schokoladebrun, Rotbrun and Oxidrot are all the same color.

You really cannot continue the argument. You are incorrect regarding the colours. To continue your line of thinking you now make an argument that sites scientific methods.

Red Primer is not a camo colour. German sources also state this quite clearly. You use museum expertise and osprey now to back up an assertion which is proven incorrect.

Simple non scientific question requiring one of two single word response only.

Do you accept the RAL system was changed completely after WWII?

Yes or no

 

[katana]

October 31 1944 OKH orderd that Dunkelgelb be replaced with Primer Oxide Red as the base coat for Panzers. OKH obviously considered Primer Oxide Red a Camouflage Color at this time. I consider OKH orders a more accurate source of information than modern speculation. Primer Oxide Red is a Red Color not a Brown Color as shown in photos previously posted on this thread.
Red Brown is a Brown Color.

The Jentz & Doyle material linked by Hunter Rose did not reference any sources for the theories presented; nor any color samples. No cross references were provided regarding RAL Colors past or present. Without supporting evidence it is difficult to logically credit the accuracy of any theory.