King Tiger Colors (2 Viewers)

[Hunter Rose]

October 31 1944 OKH orderd that Dunkelgelb be replaced with Primer Oxide Red as the base coat for Panzers. OKH obviously considered Primer Oxide Red a Camouflage Color at this time. I consider OKH orders a more accurate source of information than modern speculation.

No, the Germans did not consider red oxide primer a camo color, they considered it a primer. As for the order, you are misinterpreting it. Primer did not replace dunkelgelb as a basecoat, the order just stated that an entire base coat of dunkelgelb was no longer to be sprayed over the primer and then the camo pattern added on top of the dunkelgelb coat. Because of this, some panzers left the factory with primer still showing through.

This order was later clarified to MNH by a Waffenamt Inspector, stating that a camo pattern of three camo colors was t be applied directly onto the primer. The three camo colors were as follows:

RAL 8017 Rotbraun
RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb
RAL 6003 Olivgrun

The Jentz & Doyle material linked by Hunter Rose did not reference any sources for the theories presented; nor any color samples. No cross references were provided regarding RAL Colors past or present. Without supporting evidence it is difficult to logically credit the accuracy of any theory.

Jentz based all his technical Panzer works/books SOLELY on primary source material. That was kind of his thing and why people regarded him as an expert on these things. If Jentz stated it in one of his books it's because he found documentation for it in from an original wartime order, drawing, or document.

But hey, let's ignore the guy who spent over 20 years digging through primary source archival data. Yeah, that makes sense.

 

[katana]

Examples of Oxide Red Primer used as a Camouflage Color. The first photo is of the Bovington Tank Museum Panther. The Panther was built in Germany after the war for the museum. The second photo is of the Bovington Tank Museum Jagdpanther. The third photo is of the U S Army Aberdeen Proving Grounds Jagdpanther in its original camouflage colors. The photo is from about 1950. The pattern is very similar to the Bovington Tank Museum Panther and Jagdpanther. The colors are Oxide Red Primer, Dunkelgelb with White or Ivory outlines.

Splinter pattern camouflage utilizing Oxide Red Primer, Olivgrun and Dunkelgelb were in use on the eastern front late in the war. The Minichamps model photo posted earlier is a typical example of this type of camouflage. Using the Oxide Red Primer as the base coat reduced paint consumption by 30% according to some reports, as it doubled as both Primer and Base coat.

Since RAL numbers are unclear as to which colors of brown were in use, I suggest the terms Milk Chocolate, Dark Chocolate and Raspberry be substituted and referred to as the Hershey Standard!

 

[Hunter Rose]

So now you're citing museum repaints (and horribly bad museum repaints at that) as somehow evidence of your theories? That's just nonsense.

As for the order you cite regarding red oxide primer vs dunkelgelb, you're not getting that one right either. That order did not replace a base coat of dunkelgelb with a base coat of primer, it just stated a complete base coat of dunkelgelb was no longer to be painted over the primer (as had been the practice previously) and then the camo patterns painted on top of that. The intent was to apply the camo pattern directly to the primer.

That order was later clarified to MNH by a Waffenamt Inspector who stated a camo pattern was to be applied directly to the primer using the follwoing colors:

RAL 8017 Rotbraun
RAL 7028 Dunkelgelb
RAL 6003 Olivgrun

You ask questions on here and people give you good information, but for some reason you never want to accept that info or that others may know more on a subject than you. That's seems strange to me. You act like its unclear what camo brown was in use during WW2, but its not. All the German records discovered cite RAL 8017 Rotbraun and only RAL 8017 Rotbraun.

 

[katana]

Mr. David Willey Curator of the Bovington Tank Museum has stated that the Bovington Museum Panther was built and painted in germany just after the war. The Oxide Red Primer left exposed as part of the camouflage pattern saved 30% of the paint othewise used.

The Bovington Panther per Mr. Willey was originaly painted by the Germans, with German paint following current German practice of applying this pattern and color of camoufage. I would expect Mr. Willey to know what he is talking about given his positon.

I am always happy to receive new information. Unfortunatly the information on RAL Colors in use during WW II is still in dispute. Jentz states that only one Dunkelgelb RAL 7028 was in use through out WW II; other sources equally respected say that there were three versions in use and they changed during the course of the war. The same applies to the use of Oxidrot as a camouflage color. Respected sources are on both sides of the issue. Insufficient information exists at this time to resolve these issues IMO.

I do not consider myself an expert on anything; just an avid student of many things. I do enjoy discussing these issues and researching them and hopefully the answers wll be forthcoming in time. I am a proponent of Empirical Archeology i.e. build a Catapult and demonstrate how well it works, rather than speculate endlessly about its range with a 20 pound stone. I expect someone will make some paint samples from the WW II German formulations and use modern Multispectral Analysis to quantify their exact color relation to the current RAL Colors.

 

[katana]

This is incorrect.

The two hued distinction between Rotbraun and Schokoladenbraun is a post war distinction. During WW2 there was only one color. RAL8017 Rotbraun. The RAL charts were redone after the war and the colors are not the same.

I must disagree; their were at least two colors of brown used by the Whermacht for camouflage during WW II. 1935 to 7-1940 Dunkelbraun RAL 7017 was used with Dunkelgrau RAL 7021 for Panzer camouflage in both the Polish and French campaigns. Later in the war Dunkelbraun RAL 7017 may have been conflated or confused with Schokoladebrun RAL 8017.

A further source of confusion is the Classic RAL color chart classifies RAL 8012 as Rotbrun not RAL 8017 as cited by Jentz & Doyle. Jentz & Doyle state in the Missing Links article that RAL 8012 is Oxidrot; which is a red hue not brown. RAL 8012 cannot be both Rotbrun and Oxidrot. The Pigment Formulas are the only data that will eventually resolve these issues IMO.

Does anyone know if the Camouflage Colors book that Jentz & Doyle have been working on since 2002 will ever be published. I know Thomas Jentz passed in 2012; but is Hilary Doyle proceeding with the book?

 

[Hunter Rose]

Sadly with Jentz gone I don't think we will ever see this book on their camo research. It'sa shame as it would have made for a great read. For me at least.

 

[katana]

I hope Hilary Doyle proceeds with the project. I understand they had aquired a huge amount of original documentation to support their contensions; it would be a terrible waste not to use it to produce the book that has been highly anticipated for over 12 years. Key issues remain unresolved with highly credible sources on both sides.

I recently read of a color chip for a varient of Dunkelgelb that had been found and it was consistant with recorded pigment formulations. Possible proof of the theory that multiple official hues were in use in addition to Dunkelgelb nach Muster. The Thomas Jentz book could have clarified so much. Sad!