Kingtiger (2 Viewers)

[Warrior]

Yes yes, Figarti, TG, Minichamps, VS Tank, Matchbox, Lego, Airfix, and all of the other wonderful models you collect along with anyone else who has ever made anything does it better and with more accuracy than we do and at a far lower price. We suck, I get it. Just terrible. The horror! ^&grin

I do enjoy your posts Katana. They used to irritate me as I just couldn't understand how anyone could be so obtuse or perhaps it was that you are the single greatest troll in the history of the Internet, fully dedicated to your craft like the guy from The Prestige. But now they provide an going source of wonderful amusement..... We here at FL get endless laughs over your posts, so please, keep them coming!

I hate to ruffle your feathers Mr Matt, but if Lego can get the correct color olivgrun and blacken the air intake screens on their model, you sure as **** had better do the same from now on...………:wink2:………..

And yes, Katana certainly does provide a wonderful ongoing source of amusement on this forum.

When he latches onto a certain point, he holds onto it like grim death, it's astounding.

Yeah, that's the word, astounding.

 

[katana]

I have acknowledged the quality of FL products many times. The FL Persian Elephant is superb. The FL Trebuchet is excellent and historically accurate. When I find a product that is inaccurate I point out the inaccuracy in the hope that it will be corrected at some point. The FL Onager is an example of historical inaccuracy as a Roman piece, as a bow was not used; but it could pass for a type of Medieval Catapult. I consider the FL Panzers to be of the same quality as Figarti; but Figarti did a better job of getting the colors right IMO. I congratulate FL on getting the Panzer scale correct. I have been critical of many manufacturers for inaccurate scale.

I have never stated that FL is an inferior product generally. I think your figures compare favorably with any manufacturers and exceed many in quality. I do think the prices are a bit high; but that is for the individual collector to determine. I do feel my Figarti Panther G is as good as the FL Panther G at considerably less cost. My criticisms of FL and any manufacturer of Toy Soldiers has been product specific not general. I certainly bare no ill will towards you or your company. Many Toy Soldier manufacturers have received flak in discussions on the forum for a variety of problems experienced by collectors. Figarti had paint problems, TCS has had design and quality issues, K&C has had scale issues and WB has delivery problems. All these issues have been discussed on the forum; so don't take negative comments personally. Recognize a problem and correct it where possible and make sure it doesn't happen again.

Brian Levy had design issues and I recommended to him a design review process to catch design problems before production. A design review process at FL may have caught the problem of the position of the idler on the KT prior to production. You may very well have such a process in place and the problem slipped through. Stuff Happen! When I was designing medical products I ran product designs by doctors and patients to garner objective opinions of the product. The suggestions made were invaluable in improving the products. Camouflage colors and patterns are subjective and feedback from knowledgeable collectors would be invaluable. I am sure many collectors on the forum would be happy to provide confidential advice on new products. A great deal of knowledge in diverse fields resides in the forum membership.

I am pleased to have provided amusement to the staff of FL. I will strive to provide more in future!

Yes yes, Figarti, TG, Minichamps, VS Tank, Matchbox, Lego, Airfix, and all of the other wonderful models you collect along with anyone else who has ever made anything does it better and with more accuracy than we do and at a far lower price. We suck, I get it. Just terrible. The horror! ^&grin

I do enjoy your posts Katana. They used to irritate me as I just couldn't understand how anyone could be so obtuse or perhaps it was that you are the single greatest troll in the history of the Internet, fully dedicated to your craft like the guy from The Prestige. But now they provide an going source of wonderful amusement..... We here at FL get endless laughs over your posts, so please, keep them coming!

 

[fmethorst]

Museums from my perspective do a horrible job of repaints

Look at this abomination of Tiger 332



I've been to Bovington and their repaints were generally terrible and weren't even consistent amongst themselves.







Compare those to pictures of real vehicles and equipment









These Jagdpanthers show red primer over sprayed thinly with RAL 7028



In this black and white photo we can clearly see the difference between the RAL7028 Dark Yellow (lightest shade), RAL6003 Olive Green (medium shade) and RAL8017 Dark Brown (darkest shade). If you convert a picture of a model to black and white and can't distinguish olive green from dark brown then either the green is too dark, brown is too light, or both.

 

[katana]

I agree the KT now at Fort Benning is a poor example of German WWII camouflage colors. The Bovington KT is a very good example of WWII German camouflage colrs IMO. The Dunkel Gleb looks like RAL 7028. The Oiliv Grun looks like RAL 6003 and the Rot Brun looks like RAL 8012. Whats not to like? The Panther G at Bovington is a reproduction of a late war camouflage pattern that was acknowledged by Hilary L. Doyle. The Oxidrot RAL 3009 is the undercoating. The stripes of Dunkel Gleb and Elfinbein were also found on a Jagdpanther displayed at Aberdeen Proving Grounds post WWII of which many color photos exist. A Jagdpanther at Bovinton is painted in a similar pattern to the Aberdeen example. The Oxiderot is a red color not a Brown color like Rot Brun. Lively discussions have transpired about Oxidrot and Rot Brun being the same color; but each color has its own RAL designation and formulation; thus they are distinct.

I expect differences of opinion upon which colors are correct will persist long after I am gone. The conversations are interesting and educational and thus worthwhile IMO.

 

[uksubs]

. The conversations are interesting and educational and thus worthwhile IMO.

They would be if you could back up your opinion with actually facts but the end of the day it just your opinion , your not telling anyone anything new that they can’t find on the world wide net themselves , hardly educational to be honest :wink2:

 

[Hunter Rose]

They would be if you could back up your opinion with actually facts but the end of the day it just your opinion , your not telling anyone anything new that they can’t find on the world wide net themselves , hardly educational to be honest :wink2:

And some of the info is inaccurate.

The color pictures of the Aberdeen Jagdpanther are not the original wartime colors. It is a repaint. The pattern is close but it differs from pictures of the actual wartime Jagdpanther.

Also, the red oxide primer as camo is still debated. Jentz and Doyle are the ones who made the claim. Jentz was asked for clarification by many or where the source came from, but he never offered any clarification that I am aware.

The picture that Frank posted above of the three Jagdpanthers is one that contributes to the confusion. They are not actually in primer,. The color picture that is found on the internet is a poor version of the original where the colors are off. The Jagdpanthers are actually in tri-camo. You can see on the Jagdpantheron the right Olivgrun splotches on the hull side if you look closely. Also, the Rotbraun on the cannon barrel matches the rotbraun on the hull side. Cannons were never delivered in red primer. They were delivered in grey or Dunkelgelb heat resistant lacquer coatings.

Not saying the red oxide prime camo did not happen, but I've yet to see any indisputable proof of it. All the late war color photos that are known show tri-camo colors or the later Dunkelgrun.

 

[katana]

I backed up my assertion that the FL KT model Idler was located incorrectly with photographs of the correct position of the Idler on an actual King Tiger. I also posted photos of the the front of the FL KT turret and the front of an actual KT turret showing where the turret machine gun and gun sight ports should be black. Also the interior of the muzzle brake. The photos are clear proof of the errors in the FL model; not as you claim a matter of opinion, but facts! You may not like the facts; but facts they remain.

I try to back up my assertions with photographs in the public domain where possible. I wouldn't want to be accused of photoshopping my proof would I? Another reason that I use photos of tank museum camouflage patterns; so anyone can look at the photos online from the original source and validate they are unedited.

They would be if you could back up your opinion with actually facts but the end of the day it just your opinion , your not telling anyone anything new that they can’t find on the world wide net themselves , hardly educational to be honest :wink2:

 

[katana]

Could you please post both the Wartime and Aberdeen Proving Ground photos of the Jagdpanther that you reference?

And some of the info is inaccurate.

The color pictures of the Aberdeen Jagdpanther are not the original wartime colors. It is a repaint. The pattern is close but it differs from pictures of the actual wartime Jagdpanther.

Also, the red oxide primer as camo is still debated. Jentz and Doyle are the ones who made the claim. Jentz was asked for clarification by many or where the source came from, but he never offered any clarification that I am aware.

The picture that Frank posted above of the three Jagdpanthers is one that contributes to the confusion. They are not actually in primer,. The color picture that is found on the internet is a poor version of the original where the colors are off. The Jagdpanthers are actually in tri-camo. You can see on the Jagdpantheron the right Olivgrun splotches on the hull side if you look closely. Also, the Rotbraun on the cannon barrel matches the rotbraun on the hull side. Cannons were never delivered in red primer. They were delivered in grey or Dunkelgelb heat resistant lacquer coatings.

Not saying the red oxide prime camo did not happen, but I've yet to see any indisputable proof of it. All the late war color photos that are known show tri-camo colors or the later Dunkelgrun.

 

[ivanmoe]

Gentlemen, both pro and con, the pics being posted don’t PROVE anything. The light sources are such that they’re capable of generating images that appear different, even of the exact same vehicle, from those captured in a different setting. For example, several of the pics were taken under fluorescent bulbs, a light source that’s notorious for generating a greenish tint in photos. Remove the subject from that same environment, and the color will shift as a result.

I’d humbly suggest that everyone take a more practical approach to TS-product, and show a wllingness to accept what’s to be admired in ALL these sets. The broader community of collectors will rank them in a relative sense, rather than a standard based on illusory absolutes that individual members sometimes seem to be grasping for. Finally, buy what you like and try to be more open minded regarding the priorities and preferences of others.

-Moe

 

[katana]

The conversations are interesting and their is usually something new to be learned. The discussions of colors and scale can be lively at time; but entertaining and informative. I enjoyed Gebhards photographs and comments. The comment by Moe about lighting shifting color perception is valid. Modern Fluorescent bulbs have a range of phosphorescent coatings available that can mitigate color shift; but daylight is the best source for correct color rendition. Digital cameras can correct for color shift as can image processing software. I will try in future to post photos of camouflaged vehicles in daylight.

 

[Vezzolf]

Gentlemen, both pro and con, the pics being posted don’t PROVE anything. The light sources are such that they’re capable of generating images that appear different, even of the exact same vehicle, from those captured in a different setting. For example, several of the pics were taken under fluorescent bulbs, a light source that’s notorious for generating a greenish tint in photos. Remove the subject from that same environment, and the color will shift as a result.

I’d humbly suggest that everyone take a more practical approach to TS-product, and show a wllingness to accept what’s to be admired in ALL these sets. The broader community of collectors will rank them in a relative sense, rather than a standard based on illusory absolutes that individual members sometimes seem to be grasping for. Finally, buy what you like and try to be more open minded regarding the priorities and preferences of others.

-Moe

Great Post :salute::...Also IMO some of those photos of those WWII Museum Tank Restoration/Preservation camo paint jobs are not pleasing to the eye in many instances......Even if those are indeed historically accurate count me out because I would not buy a model tank that ia painted like those....UGLY

 

[katana]

Minichamps made a Panther G from the Oder Front that used Oxidrot and Oliv Grun stripes. Late war paint stocks were depleted and the Germans used what they had; ugly or not!

Great Post :salute::...Also IMO some of those photos of those WWII Museum Tank Restoration/Preservation camo paint jobs are not pleasing to the eye in many instances......Even if those are indeed historically accurate count me out because I would not buy a model tank that ia painted like those....UGLY

 

[katana]

The photos show the Bovington KT inside and outside; in this instance ant color shift is not apparent.

Gentlemen, both pro and con, the pics being posted don’t PROVE anything. The light sources are such that they’re capable of generating images that appear different, even of the exact same vehicle, from those captured in a different setting. For example, several of the pics were taken under fluorescent bulbs, a light source that’s notorious for generating a greenish tint in photos. Remove the subject from that same environment, and the color will shift as a result.

I’d humbly suggest that everyone take a more practical approach to TS-product, and show a wllingness to accept what’s to be admired in ALL these sets. The broader community of collectors will rank them in a relative sense, rather than a standard based on illusory absolutes that individual members sometimes seem to be grasping for. Finally, buy what you like and try to be more open minded regarding the priorities and preferences of others.

-Moe

 

[War Park]

The owner of FM and me are in one on-line group.I saw he post two pics.
And there are only two pics and I don't know any more.

 

[TomNT]

The owner of FM and me are in one on-line group.I saw he post two pics.
And there are only two pics and I don't know any more.

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Thanks for posting Hangyu, it looks awesome, I hope it sees the light of day in the market place!

Tom

 

[katana]

The colors look good. What is the scale? Polystone or resin materials? ED has a Porsche(Krupp) turret 1/30 KT in development. Interesting to see who will be next to market with a KT.

Only three Toy Soldier manufacturers have released KTs over the 10 years!