Lets try this in a new way (1 Viewer)

[Rob]

Here is the story again. I think this a very interesting article and worthy of discussion on here amongst adult collectors. Any post that baits, goads or insults other nations will be flagged by me for the mods. We live in a free world and should be able to discuss the subject in an open and free manner. So atrocities happened in the war on both sides, but did anyone else believe it was only the SS that carried them out on the German side and as a result are they shocked by this story? Me I thought it highly unlikely that with thousands of men marching into countries where they had no right to be that there simply had to be cases of ordinary German soldiers killing innocent civilians, it seemed a natural by product of the German aggression against other countries. Thoughts gentlemen?

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...-soldiers-responsible-war-crimes-just-SS.html

 

[Scott]

Rob, You may wish to consider which nations or even ethnic groups were the biggest colonial powers up to that time. The relatively new German Nation was catching up to the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, British , French, Russians, not including Asia powers not in our "neck 0' the woods." The US of A was busy as well.

Land, wealth, cheap labor, and emigration of the home population with some ideal to justify it all plus the Germans actually put atrocities to the locals in their policy. Put the Soviets in this camp. Earlier colonial powers just read between the lines of existing creeds.

 

[Rob]

Rob, You may wish to consider which nations or even ethnic groups were the biggest colonial powers up to that time. The relatively new German Nation was catching up to the Spanish, Portuguese, Dutch, British , French, Russians, not including Asia powers not in our "neck 0' the woods." The US of A was busy as well.

Land, wealth, cheap labor, and emigration of the home population with some ideal to justify it all plus the Germans actually put atrocities to the locals in their policy. Put the Soviets in this camp. Earlier colonial powers just read between the lines of existing creeds.

Interesting post Scott, thanks for posting this view of it.

I guess many records of any German soldiers convicted of the odd killing of civvies are long gone now, if they were even pulled up for it.

Rob

 

[lancer]

It stretches credibility to the breaking point to believe that all the frontline atrocities, the behind the lines atrocities, the holocaust, and whatever else one wants to label the killings that took place, could be perpetrated by just the Waffen SS, SD, Sonderkommando's, and concentration camp guards. It took the whole Nazi organization from top to bottom and the whole German nation from top to bottom, a total commitment by the nation, to pulloff WW2. It couldn't have happened without the majority being behind it. It was regular Germans who made up the vast majority of the armed forces, (the Waffen SS was in the minority in the Wehrmacht), and did their duty as they were ordered. The war simply could not have been fought or lasted as long as it did without non-SS members, and because the vast majority were not SS, it follows to reason that atrocities had to be spread amongst all branches of the Wehrmacht. The SS alone just could not have pulled off all the killing alone, even though they are most infamous, and lay claim to the most high profile killings. This is true for where ever the Wehrmacht was. I am sure that the SS was more 'enthusiastic' about the various policies but the overall responsibility lays with German nation, not just a portion. Frontline killing of prisoners or those attempting to surrender, in the heat of battle killings, if one prefers, were a problem for all combatants, and are hard to blame on one nation. A deliberate policy to exterminate, spread through all occupied countries, is not. The SS was labeled as a criminal organization and has thus become the focus of blame, but it was Germany, not an relatively small organization, that declared war. -- Al

 

[Rob]

It stretches credibility to the breaking point to believe that all the frontline atrocities, the behind the lines atrocities, the holocaust, and whatever else one wants to label the killings that took place, could be perpetrated by just the Waffen SS, SD, Sonderkommando's, and concentration camp guards. It took the whole Nazi organization from top to bottom and the whole German nation from top to bottom, a total commitment by the nation, to pulloff WW2. It couldn't have happened without the majority being behind it. It was regular Germans who made up the vast majority of the armed forces, (the Waffen SS was in the minority in the Wehrmacht), and did their duty as they were ordered. The war simply could not have been fought or lasted as long as it did without non-SS members, and because the vast majority were not SS, it follows to reason that atrocities had to be spread amongst all branches of the Wehrmacht. The SS alone just could not have pulled off all the killing alone, even though they are most infamous, and lay claim to the most high profile killings. This is true for where ever the Wehrmacht was. I am sure that the SS was more 'enthusiastic' about the various policies but the overall responsibility lays with German nation, not just a portion. Frontline killing of prisoners or those attempting to surrender, in the heat of battle killings, if one prefers, were a problem for all combatants, and are hard to blame on one nation. A deliberate policy to exterminate, spread through all occupied countries, is not. The SS was labeled as a criminal organization and has thus become the focus of blame, but it was Germany, not an relatively small organization, that declared war. -- Al

Excellent post Al.

Rob

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Gents,

Please keep the discussion civil and try to remain on topic. Posts that arent on topic will be deleted. I hope that this is all I will have to say about it.

Rob thanks for trying to discuss this topic again.

Dave

 

[Poppo]

I think that the german crimes during WW2 have been very clearly established in the Nurenberg trials, and all the years after it till nowadays. In Germany, with the "denazification" program, in all Europe and all the world. Holocaust has been examined in all its parts, so many movies have been made, and books written about it. Germany itself is the first to admit and con**** firmly the nazi crimes.
Sure, not only the einsatzgruppen, but also Whermacht troops commited crimes, because the german soldiers were trained to exterminate "inferior" people, often they had to execute criminal orders given by superiors and even Whermacht generals ( even Von Runsteld, von Mainstein). The youngs from the "Hitler Jugend" were also trained to hate, to have no human feelings, even to hate their parents. The nazi leaders were very perverted and changed the german people into beasts, changing the human values: tolerance, humanity, compassion were considered just like weakness and cowardness; and hate, violence, murder were encouraged and rewarded by the nazi state.The nazi let spread out the worst instincts that all human have inside.

This said, many germans didn' t agree with this system, and many agreed with it. Many criminals and sadic could kill and torture as the state gave them this chance and rewarded them.

I wouldn' t arrive to the point of saying that the germans are criminal minded in their DNA and that thay must be blamed for the faults of their grand, or grand , grand parents for the centuries to come....
I would say that the germans as a people had a tendance to respect hierachies, to follow orders without thinking in that time.

And everybody forgets that Stalin and Soviet Union killed more million people than the nazi and spread terror on other millions..the "Gulag system" was so huge to eat and destroy million people till the mid 50ies.
But no western europeans nor americans tasted the red army terror and mass murders ( interesting to readAntony Beevor' s books about this). Stalin was a grey and boring charachter, not folkloristic like Hitler...But million of people gassed by the nazi or killed by starving by death and shoted by the soviets make the same result...

 

[Mitch]

Rob...

Glad you restarted the thread. I think Al's [post summarises it very well. The Einsatzgruppen who really were the first units under the control of the SD to eradicate large numbers of those deemed untermensch by the germans were readily assisted by the local army units. They were given logistical support in terms of transport, food, housing and, ammunition by any army units that were in their area. German supplies officers were authorised to give priority to these supplies to the einsatzgruppen when in their areas. These documents exist and can be read. If one looks at the trials of the einsatzgruppen personel and the documents that were used there are many that actually praise the assistance of the local german units for their ''exemplory conduct'' in assisting units taking part in actions essential to the security of the reich.

Many discussions were documented between Otto Ohlendorf (Kommander of Einsatz gruppen D) to local army com,manders for their assistance in all areas. These groups could not have undertaken the work without all the support that goes into such an action without the Heer.

Whilst its not the small scale or, relatively small scale of the quotes in the story you posted it clearly shows these apparent normal troops were party to it sufficiently to be as guilty as those who fired the guns. I have read a few accounts where local commanders objected to this usurping of their troops and supplies however, on further reading it was not because people were being killed but, that his men were going without food to feed the einsatz soldiers!!!

If one looks further as good a place to look is the actions of german paras and army units in Crete. Kandanos was raised to the ground and the germans actually placed a sign before the village with '' so the village will never be rebuilt'' on it. There are plenty of reports of troops who actually boasted about shooting men women and children who ran from the village for their lives.

While its impossible to say every german either took part, knew or, was somehow complicit in these actions its fair to say that a regime that based its policies on the extermination of huge groups of people could have not done it without the support of everyone on the frontline and on the homefront.

Its ceratinly easy to say that life was seen as cheap and, even normal people or, so called normal people were able to do terrible things. The only difference is that this was a sanctioned action from the regime in charge where orders were laid that troops that killed civillians etc or, enemies of the state were not to be punished, compared to those acts where troops of all sides lose their heads and kill prisoners, or civillians.
Mitch

 

[Scott]

If it adds to the conversation, my late father claimed that a German sniper shot the canteen from his hand while he was trying to take the Sulfa pills the medic gave him after my father was wounded.

 

[Rob]

Hi Gents,

Please keep the discussion civil and try to remain on topic. Posts that arent on topic will be deleted. I hope that this is all I will have to say about it.

Rob thanks for trying to discuss this topic again.

Dave

Must say Dave I'm glad you're here as we need a voice of non twisted logic following some shocking double standards on show today.

Rob

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I think the Germans and Japanese set the initial tone for WWII atrocities. Not in 100% all cases but many.
From there every action caused a reaction by the other sides. Luckily my own dealings as a retired career
Soldier in the combat arms field did not allow for any atrocities by myself or my fellow soldiers during
The last major tank battle of the 20th century...the. gulf war. In the same hour of combat I fired my weapons
At the then Iraqi army and set Soviet armored vehicles ablaze, yet if another group of combatants passed by
Unarmed and waving white flags we tossed them food and water. Back then we dished out either a bullet or
A life saving meal. The choice was theirs. My point being made here is our chain of command ensured as soldiers
We acted accordingly. Nations that let their armed warriors run amok and do as they please do nothing to help
Prevent atrocities from occurring. I would also add here in getting back to WWII look at the north Africa campaign.
Rommel instilled in the troops under his command to respect the enemy and treat wounded and captured troops
With humane care afforded to them under the Geneva convention. Many tales of German AK and British tommies
Mixed in each others lines sharing a smoke and a drink together, even trading supplies.Amazing comparison but
Just an example of how the actions of one affect the actions of another.

 

[Sentaapua]

Rob, I am not surprised at all with the contents of this article, and I liked the fact that you posted it. Specially in the Eastern front, the atrocities carried out by either side were not the monopoly of the SS or NKVD. The SS didn`t have the manpower or territorial presence to have committed all the atrocities the Germans inflicted from 1941 to 1945 in that front. They might not have been the most notorious and high profile ones, but nevertheless a portion of the Wehrmacht soldiers have an expressive share of war crimes on their backs. I found it at least curious that it took 2 German historians to specifically address this issue, that you will find in many history books covering the German-Russian war, just with not the same colors that they cover the SS killings...