Like a cow admiring a passing train...that's me with these vintage soldiers in Tokyo! (1 Viewer)

[Kevin_mc]

Hello,

I'm throwing myself upon the mercy of the forum in the hope of finding some help with general identification of lot of about 200 vintage painted soldiers here in Tokyo. I'm not a collector, not yet anyway. That said I am a U.S. Army veteran and these strike a chord for sure.

The soldiers belonged to my neighbor's father, and he played with them in the 1930s when he was a child. The soldiers are metal and painted. My neighbor believes they are made of lead, but I get the feeling they are probably tin. There are also some very nice silhouettes of naval ships, as well as what look to be representations of artillery explosions amid trenchworks. I've attached some photos.

If anyone could help me shed some light on the possible maker of these soldiers, it would help me figure out if the asking price is reasonable.

Thank you for your consideration and best regards from Tokyo.

V/r,

Kevin

 

[theBaron]

Re: Toy soldiers from Tokyo in the 30's

Hello,

I'm throwing myself upon the mercy of the forum in the hope of finding some help with general identification of lot of about 200 vintage painted soldiers here in Tokyo. I'm not a collector, not yet anyway. That said I am a U.S. Army veteran and these strike a chord for sure.

The soldiers belonged to my neighbor's father, and he played with them in the 1930s when he was a child. The soldiers are metal and painted. My neighbor believes they are made of lead, but I get the feeling they are probably tin. There are also some very nice silhouettes of naval ships, as well as what look to be representations of artillery explosions amid trenchworks. I've attached some photos.

If anyone could help me shed some light on the possible maker of these soldiers, it would help me figure out if the asking price is reasonable.

Thank you for your consideration and best regards from Tokyo.

V/r,

Kevin

Hi, Kevin, and welcome to the forum!

These toy soldiers are European in origin, most likely German. They may have been produced by a commercial company, but they might also have been cast from molds sold to hobbyists to cast and paint their own toy soldiers. I'm leaning towards a commercial maker, based on the shape of the bases, with the cross-wise "feet" that extend to either side to stabilize the figures. Of the molds made for hobbyists, I haven't seen any that have that feature. I'll check my references, though, and see if I can find anything like them. The ships look more familiar to me, than the figures. That is, I think I've seen pictures of them in one or more of my books on German toy soldiers.

Regarding the metal used to cast them, it probably is an alloy with a good percentage of lead. Even "tin" soldiers aren't cast in an alloy of pure tin. Tin by itself is too brittle would produce a figure likely to break at narrow points. Lead makes an alloy that casts at a lower temperature but is more malleable and can withstand wear and tear better. Other metals like antimony or bismuth were used, and still are today, because with the old slate molds that were used to make what are called flats, and today's silicon rubber molds can have fine and crisp details. Antimony and bismuth can help the alloy pour and cast such fine details. They were used in making linotype metal for casting typeface, for example. It doesn't detract from the quality or collectability of the toy soldiers. Just that an alloy that has a higher lead content, or is close to 100%, is so soft that castings tend to have soft detail, or the figures get deformed with play.

As far as a price goes, with figures like these, likely homecasts, it could be all over the place. They're not as collectable as the modern collector's figures are (eg, King & Country, First Legion), but there are collectors out there, who specialize in them. Provenance can help; in this case, you have some information that does confirm the age of these toy soldiers. It can be hard to date homecasts, because the molds still exist, and people still cast with them (I'm one of them). Also, though the molds were made for hobbyists to cast for themselves, there were enterprising hobbyists who went into business for themselves and sold their castings, painted, under their own labels. If your neighbor had an original box, that would help determine whether they were cast by a toy soldier maker, or cast by a hobbyist who liked to cast. Also, in the case of commercial figures, we could go to auction sites like eBay, and look for and follow auctions for those figures, or get catalogs, and establish a baseline for prices. For homecasts, it'd be difficult. It might come down to whatever you and your neighbor agree on at the time.

Like I said, I'll take a look in the books I have on German toy soldiers and see if I can find anything like them, and post back with whatever I find.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Kevin_mc]

Re: Toy soldiers from Tokyo in the 30's

Hi, Kevin, and welcome to the forum!

These toy soldiers are European in origin, most likely German. They may have been produced by a commercial company, but they might also have been cast from molds sold to hobbyists to cast and paint their own toy soldiers. I'm leaning towards a commercial maker, based on the shape of the bases, with the cross-wise "feet" that extend to either side to stabilize the figures. Of the molds made for hobbyists, I haven't seen any that have that feature. I'll check my references, though, and see if I can find anything like them. The ships look more familiar to me, than the figures. That is, I think I've seen pictures of them in one or more of my books on German toy soldiers.

Regarding the metal used to cast them, it probably is an alloy with a good percentage of lead. Even "tin" soldiers aren't cast in an alloy of pure tin. Tin by itself is too brittle would produce a figure likely to break at narrow points. Lead makes an alloy that casts at a lower temperature but is more malleable and can withstand wear and tear better. Other metals like antimony or bismuth were used, and still are today, because with the old slate molds that were used to make what are called flats, and today's silicon rubber molds can have fine and crisp details. Antimony and bismuth can help the alloy pour and cast such fine details. They were used in making linotype metal for casting typeface, for example. It doesn't detract from the quality or collectability of the toy soldiers. Just that an alloy that has a higher lead content, or is close to 100%, is so soft that castings tend to have soft detail, or the figures get deformed with play.

As far as a price goes, with figures like these, likely homecasts, it could be all over the place. They're not as collectable as the modern collector's figures are (eg, King & Country, First Legion), but there are collectors out there, who specialize in them. Provenance can help; in this case, you have some information that does confirm the age of these toy soldiers. It can be hard to date homecasts, because the molds still exist, and people still cast with them (I'm one of them). Also, though the molds were made for hobbyists to cast for themselves, there were enterprising hobbyists who went into business for themselves and sold their castings, painted, under their own labels. If your neighbor had an original box, that would help determine whether they were cast by a toy soldier maker, or cast by a hobbyist who liked to cast. Also, in the case of commercial figures, we could go to auction sites like eBay, and look for and follow auctions for those figures, or get catalogs, and establish a baseline for prices. For homecasts, it'd be difficult. It might come down to whatever you and your neighbor agree on at the time.

Like I said, I'll take a look in the books I have on German toy soldiers and see if I can find anything like them, and post back with whatever I find.

Prost!
Brad

Mr. James,

Thank you so very much for your kind, thorough, and extremely informative response. I'm amazed. I managed to get a couple photos of the only original box she has, as most of the soldiers are stored in old cookie tins... However I have not yet managed to get the files small enough so that I can upload them and you can still see them. I've been trying for about an hour, and getting frustrated with Windows. I'm about to quit the field for the night as it's getting pretty late and tomorrow starts early. My apologies! I can say that the box has a label which reads FIRST (Black), SECOND (Red), and THIRD (Yellow) INFANTRY REGIMENTS OF THE LINE, Nov, 1933. It includes a small Japanese flag. The end of the box has a label which reads ABMY PARADE. I know that looks like a typo, but it is not it says ABMY, not ARMY. The same small label on the end of the box also has the Trade Mark of "Modern Toy." God willing I will get the photos sorted tomorrow. Sorry for the trouble of no photos! I didn't want my head to hit the pillow without writing to thank you. Thank you!!!

Best regards from Tokyo.

V/r,

Kevin

 

[Kevin_mc]

Re: Toy soldiers from Tokyo in the 30's

Hi, Kevin, and welcome to the forum!

These toy soldiers are European in origin, most likely German. They may have been produced by a commercial company, but they might also have been cast from molds sold to hobbyists to cast and paint their own toy soldiers. I'm leaning towards a commercial maker, based on the shape of the bases, with the cross-wise "feet" that extend to either side to stabilize the figures. Of the molds made for hobbyists, I haven't seen any that have that feature. I'll check my references, though, and see if I can find anything like them. The ships look more familiar to me, than the figures. That is, I think I've seen pictures of them in one or more of my books on German toy soldiers.

Regarding the metal used to cast them, it probably is an alloy with a good percentage of lead. Even "tin" soldiers aren't cast in an alloy of pure tin. Tin by itself is too brittle would produce a figure likely to break at narrow points. Lead makes an alloy that casts at a lower temperature but is more malleable and can withstand wear and tear better. Other metals like antimony or bismuth were used, and still are today, because with the old slate molds that were used to make what are called flats, and today's silicon rubber molds can have fine and crisp details. Antimony and bismuth can help the alloy pour and cast such fine details. They were used in making linotype metal for casting typeface, for example. It doesn't detract from the quality or collectability of the toy soldiers. Just that an alloy that has a higher lead content, or is close to 100%, is so soft that castings tend to have soft detail, or the figures get deformed with play.

As far as a price goes, with figures like these, likely homecasts, it could be all over the place. They're not as collectable as the modern collector's figures are (eg, King & Country, First Legion), but there are collectors out there, who specialize in them. Provenance can help; in this case, you have some information that does confirm the age of these toy soldiers. It can be hard to date homecasts, because the molds still exist, and people still cast with them (I'm one of them). Also, though the molds were made for hobbyists to cast for themselves, there were enterprising hobbyists who went into business for themselves and sold their castings, painted, under their own labels. If your neighbor had an original box, that would help determine whether they were cast by a toy soldier maker, or cast by a hobbyist who liked to cast. Also, in the case of commercial figures, we could go to auction sites like eBay, and look for and follow auctions for those figures, or get catalogs, and establish a baseline for prices. For homecasts, it'd be difficult. It might come down to whatever you and your neighbor agree on at the time.

Like I said, I'll take a look in the books I have on German toy soldiers and see if I can find anything like them, and post back with whatever I find.

Prost!
Brad

To His Excellency, The Baron.

Sir,

I apologize for my delay in reply! The exigencies of the family life combined with my technical clumsiness and sloth prevented me from a more rapid response... Once again a great many thanks for the trove of information about lead / tin alloy soldiers in general, and these soldiers in particular. I think this is all very interesting, and I am seriously impressed by your expertise. As I mentioned, I went back to my neighbor's and obtained photos of the only original box that remains. I have managed to upload them! I hope the information on them is useful. I ordered an old book about non-USA made soldiers, but have yet to receive it...

Thank you again and best regards from Tokyo,

Kevin

 

[theBaron]

Thanks for the additional photos!

The box looks like it's contemporary, at least, and may be the box for some of the toy soldiers in this collection. You're right, the label does say "Abmy", but I do think that that's a typo by the manufacturer, especially if that box was printed in Japan. Most of the labels that I've seen from German companies back then were much more colorful, often with battle scenes, and often with images of awards won at various toy fairs. On smaller boxes, even the plainer labels had some decorative borders around the edge, with hand-written descriptions or catalog info.

I don't think they're all from the same maker, though.

The figures with the "feet" molded at right angles to the long axis of the base remind me of figures by the German maker Spenkuch. I don't have any catalogs, unfortunately, just photos in books. I have two books by the German author Hans Henning Roer, "Zinnsoldaten" ("Tin Soldiers") (1980), and "Old German Toy Soldiers" (1993).

Note that many of them have been glued to rectangular bases, most likely for stability.

The figures with square bases might be by Haffner, though there were other makers who used rectangular bases, too.

Add to that, that some of them might be homecasts, and it's a great little collection of a boy living in the 30s!

Prost!
Brad

A PS...

You might be interested in looking at this thread, posted earlier by another member:

https://forum.treefrogtreasures.com/showthread.php?74346-Toy-soldiers-identification

He shows a box of toy soldiers that I think are also of German make, and that they depict Russian infantry. You can see a similarity in style between those and some of yours.

 

[theBaron]

I meant to ask, too-can you post a closer photo of the carriage and figures on the box in the center of the table? We have an intriguing glimpse; it would be interesting to see closer detail.

Prost!
Brad

 

[DMNamiot]

Those are some pretty interesting figures! I am wondering if some of them might be by AHI which I know made toy soldiers in Japan. Just not sure of their years of production. I think AHI made figures that looked like the ones produced by Heyde. Just a thought.
Some of those figures certainly look German made to me and could well be from Heinrichson or as Brad already mentioned Spenkuch.
As for the box the trade mark on the side is a way to figure it out so I would try a deep dive on the web and see if you can find it.

Thanks for sharing the photos

Dave

 

[Kevin_mc]

I meant to ask, too-can you post a closer photo of the carriage and figures on the box in the center of the table? We have an intriguing glimpse; it would be interesting to see closer detail.
Prost!
Brad

Certainly! Looks like along with the carriage were the various and sundry pieces that were not soldiers... civilians and livestock. My neighbor believes they were from some other set of toys... The carriage is ostensibly the Japanese emperor's carriage, however the Chrysanthemum on the side doors is not completely correct, which gave her the idea the carriage was not made in Japan

 

[theBaron]

Thanks for the additional photos!

The cock atop the carriage makes me wonder if the sculptor meant to depict a French carriage, since it's a symbol of France.

The farm animals, the farm girl, those are almost certainly German.

The French soldiers are probably of German manufacture, too; again, Spenkuch comes to mind, but there are other, similar toy soldiers out there.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Kevin_mc]

Thanks for the additional photos!

The cock atop the carriage makes me wonder if the sculptor meant to depict a French carriage, since it's a symbol of France.

The farm animals, the farm girl, those are almost certainly German.

The French soldiers are probably of German manufacture, too; again, Spenkuch comes to mind, but there are other, similar toy soldiers out there.

Prost!
Brad

Brad, Dave, everyone,

A great many thanks. I have been going through images online of various German collections, and my sense is that you gentlemen are very probably correct that much of this collection is of German manufacture. You have saved me a lot of time and trouble, and I am very grateful for you showing me which threads to pull...
I think Spenkuch and Heyde collections bear a close resemblance to the soldiers I'm looking at here. I strongly suspect the ships to be Spenkuch, and I have not been able to find any examples of ships that are quite as nice as the ones my neighbor has... She is willing to sell me the entire collection of about 200 pieces. I may want to buy them, but I don't want to overpay for them. That said, I have no interest in "stealing" them from her either. I'm probably not avaricious enough to ever get rich lol. In my research I noticed a wide variety of prices for German made soldiers of this vintage, and I can't find any similar ships. My sense is those are probably the most valuable pieces in the collection. Would anyone be willing to venture a guess at what a fair price for this whole collection might be?

Thanks and best regards from Tokyo,

Kevin

P.S. About the carriage... I think the bird atop the carriage is meant to be a phoenix bird rather than a cock, but I will double check with my neighbor... Here's a photo of Hirohito's carriage, even though it looks to be a good bit darker than the toy version... https://media.gettyimages.com/photo...l-pomp-and-in-a-picture-id515403682?s=612x612

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Kevin

The price range is always a bit frustrating as you can already tell. There are a lot of things that go into it. With the newer ones it’s easier since many of us know what the sets or figures cost when they were produced but for vintage figures like yours you can’t go by what they cost in the 1930s for obvious reasons. My suggestion is for you to go to the website Old Toy soldier auctions out of Pittsburgh. They have data stored there for past auctions which you can use to get an idea of value. I would base your prices off of the range they were looking for initially and not what a figure of set might have brought when auctioned. There are times when bidders get over zealous to try and get something they need.

Dave

 

[theBaron]

That's excellent advice, Dave!

Kevin, Ray Haradin is a long-time toy soldier and antique toy auctioneer, and a collector in his own right. He's the current publisher of the quarterly magazine, "Old Toy Soldier". His website is here: https://www.raytoys.com/index.html Among the various links, you'll the auction link Dave mentioned. Ray also maintains a Facebook page, where you can see videos that he and his marketing manager, Bre Day, prepare about the auctions and the hobby.

Prost!
Brad