Match K&C's larger size? (1 Viewer)

I don't think it's a twist to your question. That is the original question you posed: whether other companies should follow K & C because is successful. K & C made 60 mm where I believe there was previously none. They've left the competition in the dust which is why the competition is asking if they should do the same. I believe I've answered this question. As for myself, yes. But there are lot of niche manufacturers out there who need to be true to themselves and carve out their path like K & C did so the answer would be generally no, except that in the area that K & C competes and if you're a big company like a Britain's or a would be like ONWTC it has to be yes. Since K & C is predominant in WW 2, for example, if you're going to keep making 54 mm you're not going to be successful in the long run. K & C is bringing in new blood into the hobby. To share in some of that success you need to adapt. If you don't, you won't make it in the long run. That's not just soldiers, that's business or life in general.
 
Hi,
I think if it's good enough, size doesn't matter that much. I collect both K&C and other companies like Conte or Britains. I just don't mix them and try to sellect what I like best from each. I like Conte ACwar better than K&C. I like Britains Big Red One sets, so I combine them with some Britains Germans. I love Conte's British Paras, so I make them fight some Conte Waffen SS. Iwo Jima is all K&C. Berlin too. Dioramas for 54mm are more readily found ( that is starting to change because of K&C's impact ). So what I think is important is to be on the prowl for the best quality/price combination. That said, K&C is overall the best product of the market. Is it wise to try and compete against the best, in the 60mm niche? Or is it wiser to create your own niche or hold your own niche? I guess a uniform 60mm scale would make life easier for all of us, but possibly not for some companies, old or new. Didn't K&C find extreme success out of the normal 54mm scale? Wasn't it possibly a terrific strategic decision part of its success?

Happy collecting,
Paulo
 
THat is a really tough question.

I hate to say it but yes, I think it would be smart to increase the size of the figure.

One if the reasons I believe K&C has had so much success it due to the size of the figures - the ability to sculpt and paint in that style is easier in that scale.

It would bode well for some of the smaller companies to increase the size a bit and catch up.
 
There are some upcoming companies that are going the route of King & Country size. Tempest and British Commando are going to be the two new players next year. We shall see how they do after people's suggestions to increase the size of the figures to compete with K&C.
 
Looks like I will be one of the odd men out. Oh well. Here goes. No.

King and Country is King and Country. I know its the biggest and most important name in the market. I would have to say many of the others are correct when they state that its not the size.
To me K&C is as good as it is becuase of a few things. Quality and variety.

There simply isnt anyone in any scale that can offer as much variety. Andy covers a subject to the fullest. Hell he has more US airborne poses and sets then some manufactures have in their whole WWII line?

How could you compete when your figure selction is 48 total poses? Andy has more casualties then this?

My mind is thinking WWII but its true for many periods. It will take time for others to catch up, can they? Yes. Will they?
 
There are a couple of new companies that will match the scale of K&C and hopefully the general look. Will you not consider them because they will be new and only have a small selection to start? I hope not. There may be others also...
As I am sure you know, I am one of the principal owners of ONWTC and the main sculptor. We have only had product for sale for 9 months and yes we have about 48 different figures for sale at this time and only about another 30 in the pre production stage.
Not that long ago we had to decide what scale to go with and it would have been just as easy to copy, at that time, unuasual King & Country size. We felt it was more important to allow our future customers to use our figures with Conte, W. Britain's, Frontline and other more common figure companies. In the end I still belive it was the right decision becuase of the great and economically priced vehicles from Forces of Valor and 21st Century. Why would you spend $100.00 plus on a vehicle that is not as well detailed or scaled as a $25-35.00 one? Most of these well priced products only suffer from a so-so paint job that can be corrected in an enjoyable evening.
I still remember one of the first full page K&C ads... People still bought his product even though there were about 48 or so poses. The work was very crude compared to what he now can offer. How many years ago was that?
Try not to be so quick to limit your choices, or judge new companies trying to bring more choices to the market place.
 
KING & COUNTRY’S LARGER SIZE

Hi Guys,



I’ve been following the “posts” on this subject with great interest and reading both the “pros” and “cons” of both sides.

Of particular interest are the thoughts and musings of our old pal Ken Osen…

Ken, as many of you know, is a great sculptor who has worked (and still does) with many of the best known-names in the business.

However, when it comes to King & Country, cuddly Ken has a slightly ambivalent attitude – he appears to praise us but there’s always a little “sting in the tail”!

His latest “post” on this thread is perhaps closer to what he really thinks about K&C in general and me in particular.

He makes several points which I strongly feel require a response…



1) 9 months ago (or thereabouts) Ken and his buddy, “Chuck” Berry got together to form ONWTC. Their decision to go with 1:32 scale in order to complement “Conte, Britains, Frontline and other more common companies” has, in truth, not been very successful – that’s why they have to discount their own new product!

No one needs to discount a great product – never mind a good one. Mr. Berry please note.



2) Why Ken, would it have been “just as easy to copy, at that time, the unusual K&C size”?

Nine months ago, as most of the forum members here will testify, K&C was definitely not “unusual” as you spell it. Please explain further.



3) Ken’s little “dig” at comparison prices between K&C and FOV and 21st. Century is a wee bit insulting to collectors… “Why would you spend $100 plus on a vehicle that is not as well detailed or scaled as a $25 or $35 one?”

Why indeed Ken? K&C collectors must be kinda dumb and ignorant not to be able to see the obvious differences – quality and price wise between all of these companies. What do you know that all of us K&C dummies don’t know?

I fully recognize and appreciate the qualities of both these other companies and so do many K&C collectors who buy both. But I believe K&C brings something “extra” and unique to the party – and I don’t just mean the price. How else, Ken, can you explain K&C’s popularity? Dumb luck…

4) I have never denied that K&C’s earlier models are relatively “crude” compared to the quality of our newer items. However, everything must be seen in the context of the time it was made – these older items were “good for their time”.

K&C collectors recognize this fact and that’s why with more and more new collectors coming on board these older K&C items are much sought after - selling for (even to me) some amazing prices on the secondary market.

K&C is a darn good investment as well as an exciting product line to collect.



5) Finally, did everyone notice that little bit in his first paragraph… “…a couple of new companies that will match the scale and look of K&C… there may be others also…” Note “there may be others…”

I wonder… could one of those “others” possibly be the newly taken over Britains with none other than cuddly Ken Osen as its main sculptor?

I believe the toy soldier business is growing and there is always room for new companies (and older ones) that can design and manufacture products that have quality, innovation and imagination that inspires collectors. I also believe that “passion” for the hobby is worth its weight in gold and reaps its own reward.

I know Ken Osen has that passion and so do I… but we come to it from two totally different directions.

Best wishes to one and all (even Ken) and… happy collecting!



Andy C. Neilson
 
I have no wish to necessarily insert myself into this discussion but as a collector let me comment in a couple of areas. The detaling of K & C tanks are superb. They have touches that FOV or Britain's can't match. So I don't know what Ken Osen is talking about when he says that FOV is better detailed than a K & C tank. For example, the difference between the FOV Sherman tank and the King and Country Sherman (DD 45) are startling in the extreme. The DD 45 is probably one of the better items ever produced by anybody.

In addition, the difference between K & C and FOV is that the former is a collectible while the latter is a mass market produced toy. So, I don't really think they're comparable. Apples and oranges.

Lastly, while maybe the earlier work was not good as it is now, "crude" is not a word I'd associate with K & C and starting in 2001 or thereabouts the work, the sculpting, the painting has been top notch.

Just a collector's viewpoint, not a manufacturer's one, and after all we are the buying public.
 
I do not wish to get invovled with the politics of pricing which seems to be an on going disagreement with Andy and my partner in ONWTC, Rick Berry. I do however think it is time for folks to realize that ONWTC and Michigan Toy Soldier Company are two seperate companies.
What I will say that as a manufacturer myself, after I ship my products and get my invoice paid I feel that the purchaser owns them and can give them away if they wish. I have run my own company, Hudson & Allen studio that way for 14 years and I don't demand that my customers sell the items for the suggested list price because to put it bluntly..I have been paid already. To date it has not affected the value of the products.
Andy is misinformed why and when we started The Old Northwest Trading Company. It has far less to do with his product line that he wishes to think, but that is unimoprtant.
Through trial and error, hard work and a bit of luck, Andy now has a very impressive and well executed line, but it is only one of many. All of us have something to offer and my own collection is all over the board from antiques, to newly manufactured products. I was proud to buy one of W. Hocker's fine traditional sets at OTSN and I was able to add to my Imperial collection too. The new Beau Gest line looks very interesting indeed. I also own some of the newer King & Country products because they please me and help flesh out my collection.
A note of advice however...Never, ever purchase any of these figures as an investment. Purchase them with your hard earned money because they please you and hopefully give you an opportunity to meet other folks who have a passion for history and miniatures. There are much better places to invest your money, but that should be beyond the scope of this discussion.
One last point for Mr. Neilson...I feel it is inappropriate and unprofessional to use childish nicknames to describe your fellow manufacturers. I have heard many nicknames for all of us, some of them are not at all flattering and I choose not to use them. Apparently my suggestion for all of us to work together to bring our fine hobby to a larger audience is still premature. How unfortunate as I enjoy this business and feel blessed to be able to have it be my profession. I should also be fun as it is a hobby for most.
Kenneth A. Osen, Owner Hudson & Allen Studio/ONWTC
 
I don’t think this forum is the place to fight this battle. The marketplace in the long run will provide the answer.

Brad as monitor you think I’m wrong to make this statement. I will stand corrected.
 
A Note to Andy;
I don't believe a public forum is the proper place to take pot shots at me, my friends or the companies I am involved in. Are silly nicknames really necessary to make a point. I had hoped and still hope our differences are in the past. I have a couple thoughts on your comments and then I hope it is put to rest. King & Country and Old Northwest Trading Company are taking different approaches to the same time period in the miniatures market. Is ONTC as successful as K & C? Of course not! But then again we are only nine months old, already have nine sets available and many more to come. You and others may view that as unsuccessful but never under estimate the competition. It may come back to haunt you someday. A quality product, a fair price and treating people with respect is a simple idea that has succeeded many many times in business.

As to the never ending issue of my discounting at Michigan Toy Soldier (which is a completely different entity then ONTC) and our issues over them, my policies have been printed in black and white for the last 11 years and have never changed. Six of those years were as a King & Country dealer. I am honest and upfront about our policy and always have been. This is in complete contrast to the backdoor, under the table discounting of K & C and many other companies that goes on at every toy soldier/trade show in the world. I offer a simple and straight forward discount of 10% to all of our customers who take the time to sign up for our mailing list. This neither cheapens nor degrades any product and is simply a reward for our loyal and regular customers. I believe dumping product at 20%-30% off at the end of a show is what cheapens a quality product. Your assumption that reasonable discount of a product to good customers or to attract new customers is a sign of weakness or lack of success is another one that may haunt you someday. If I didn't know better I would have to assume from your comments and they way they are worded that our "little company" makes you nervous. Please let's put all the sniping behind us and get on with offering collectors what truly matters to them. The best product possible be it yours or ours. There is room for both of us. Being number two is not a problem for me. How about you?
 
Chuck Harris said:
I don’t think this forum is the place to fight this battle. The marketplace in the long run will provide the answer.

Brad as monitor you think I’m wrong to make this statement. I will stand corrected.
Click to expand...

Chuck,

This is a public forum and I believe people should be free to express their opinions. Although I don't speak for Shannon and Pete (and they can indicate otherwise), I believe that is their opinion also.
 
As the person who started this thread, I apologize if the initial question was contentious enough to cause leading figures in our hobby to trade "words." After talking with many manufacturers about "their" figures, I believe many have an emotional attachment that transcends that of a collector -- the figures are their creations, and if I may presume, somewhat analogous to children. They pour their passion into a figure, then send them out into the world with the hope their creations will be praised, admired, and of course, purchased -- to have their decisions vindicated by the marketplace. With so much emotional energy invested, any criticism, however slight or unintended, is hard to bear. Another forum member likened our hobby to being 10 year olds and reliving our childhoods. Well, I have a 9 year old son, and I am always gladdened by how fast he and his friends can forgive and forget preceived slights. :)
 
My take as the administrator (besides "Why can't we all just get along?") is that I am all for differences of opinion as long as they are stated in non-flaming ways. Please be respectful of other forum members when stating your own opinions. The toy soldier world is broad with plenty of room for everybody. Let's get back to talking collecting!

Shannon
 
I have been a King & Country Collector since 1997 when I purchased my first set from Gideon in NYC. I have added to it every year so now after 8 years it is quite extensive. I was rather suprised by comments I read which prompted me to write this.
I met Ken Olsen at a show here in Atlanta, to my suprise he was very friendly. He took time to have a conversation, talk to me about the hobby, and even signed a bridge he designed when I returned with it. I have read many comments and answers to questions posted on this and other forums by Ken. In spite of the fact that he has a company to run, traveled to Europe and was involved with the Britians deal, he still had time to speak to his customers. Anyone that has seen the Conte Churh can certainly appreciate his talent.
I might suggest other individules consider their remarks carefully before they attack him, you may think you are the Greatest, but your actions speak louder then your words.

Just my Opinion.

Njja :cool:
 
Back to Steven's Question.

Remember the days when Prince came out with the large frame tennis racket and changed the industry standard, well, people today play with large frame tennis rackets as well as mid-size to smaller frame tennis rackets. The point is, people continue to play tennis, they simply have their own preference to different size frames. I think Steven asked a great question here because I am sure it is a question all manufacturers ask themselves, we certainly did. And if you recall, our initial China Battlefield line was of a larger size. We believe K&C is King not because of its size, but because of Andy and his quality products. It is very likely we'll see many manufacturers go to the 60mm size which Andy created but many will also put out more products in the 54mm. Figarti will stay at 54mm.
 
I don’t know about the rest of you but I like this thread! I think it is very healthy. Competition is great for us the collector! You know why cause it will keep these guys that we turn over hundreds, if not thousands, of our hard earned dollars to looking for ways to increase product quality and control costs! That my friends is a win-win for us the collector! And plus its fun to see a little of the "behind the scenes drama" that plays out between the companies as they try for our $cash$.

As for my take...it's all about quality and a good price! I don’t collect toy soldiers...I collect Historical Miniatures and that means King & Country! To be honest I don’t see Andy "slipping" and letting anyone catch him in this aspect anytime soon. Not a knock on any other company..its just the fact as I see it in the marketplace today. Is there a market for the other products...I'm sure there is...just not at this time in my collection.

I heard all of my friends at the Chicago show talk about some of the different products, like the Figarti Stuart. I, for one, was not impressed..it was a nice built piece but had no color contrast to it. Look at the fuel drums on the side…..exact same color scheme as the rest of the tank. Unless it rolled off the line with those fuel drums attached that’s what makes it look like a toy and not a Historical Miniature. It would look odd next to figures in a diorama set on a battlefield. But it would look nice in a display case by itself. To each his own.

Well enough of this…in closing I say let the talk go on. A little competition from time to time is a good thing! No wait that’s Revolution! Oh well….the collector will win in the end in both cases!

Take care all,
Brian
 
I can't believe anyone with even the slightest knowledge of the secondary market could say K&C is not a good investment. I won't go so far as too say anybody is going to retire on there collection( with the possible exception of Louis), but I don't ever see the day when you'll get any sets out of production for a year or two at anywhere near retail.
 
Good point except have you noticed no sets seem to be going out of production anymore? Can't help wondering what thats all about? Is everything just going to be made forever? What kind of future production numbers are we looking at? 10 thousand, 50 thousand? Wonder what happened to the limited warehouse storage?

Njja
 
Hi,
The strength of K&C in the secondary market seems to be limited primarily to the WWII figures and vehicles. Their AWI figures do not seem to command such high prices on secondary markets such as EBAY.

However, I am not collecting any brand of manufacturer for investment purposes, i just enjoy having them on the shelf.
Benjamin
 
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