Mounted Egyptian Cavalry Band (1 Viewer)

[johnnybach]

I will be collecting a couple more Egyptian Cavalry castings later on this week - and in a fit of idle curiosity, I wondered whether they ever had a military band - so popped a question into the magic Google machine - and out came this old photo. A VERY small amount of text suggested a date of 1911 for the pic below.

I did find a second photo - which had a suggested date of 1930, which is again shown second below.

As you can see from the caption beneath - the uniform was " bright light-blue". However, they appear to be wearing a different colour plastron on their lancer-like tunics, and also a white cross belt across the chest can be seen on some. I can find no further details on these - so wondered if anyone else has any further uniform information on them - or if anyone has ever made this band up in TS style?

If I can find such details - I wouldn't mind having a bash at producing a band myself from some mix'n'match castings. Looks like red fez, Lancer style tunics and twenty-or-so white horses rather than greys. I can also make out trombones, a bombardon and maybe a saxophone - so looks like the usual mix of band instruments.

Anybody have more details ? - preferably a colour pic??? johnnybach

 

[Martin Tabony]

Nice drum horse. I'm wondering though if the light blue referes to the plastron though as the tunic seems too dark(possibly dark blue) Have you tried serching for Turkish or Ottoman bands, just to see if anything matches.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Just found this from the Egyptian National Military Museum. Described as royal guards winter and summer. Looks like the blue and obviously that lance has been cut down, although it could still do some damage "They don't like it up em".

Martin

 

[johnnybach]

Hi Martin - or is it Cpl. Jones ( they don't like it up 'em sah!).

I DID have a look around a bit - and MAY have a result. A pal of mine emailed me an illustration that may fill the bill - though I agree that the photo does look a bit on the dark side for the colours shown. It is described as "Bandsman, Egyptian Cavalry, 1910".(Which is spot-on). He says its from a web-site called "Uniforms of the World" - though I couldn't find this illustration when I looked. So I'm not sure where he got it - but anyway, I copied the illustration he sent - here it is below;

It shows white collar, plastron (brass buttons), cuffs and crossbelt whith light blue tunic and dark blue putees. Would fit in rather well with my existing Egyptian Cavalry ( Repaired Britains - below again)

What do you think? I've never seen that combo before. If that IS the uniform - should be relatively easy to replicate in a TS. Next little problemo - are the drum banners. johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Further to my last - I've been digging about in the archives of a wonderful collection of illustrations housed in NY. (by the magic of the Internet). This houses the Vinkhuijzen Collection of prints of historic Military Uniforms (and is simply excellent - so recommended).

First up - I think - shows I'm on the right track. Okay the illustration of an Egyptian Cavalryman is 50 years earlier - but note the predominant colours - pale blue and white.

Next up - another illustration showing a group of Egyptian soldiers - with a familiar figure of a Cavalry lancer at the rear - in summer uniform. The figures at the front are infantry - winter tunic (blue) to the left - and to the right - the same figure in summer uniform.

Lastly - I have had a look at Turkish uniform around this time - and this is a good example below. Note red plastrons - and no red fez evident.

My thinking at the moment - is that the pale blue uniform with white plastron is more likely to be correct. It MAY be that the blue tunic of the band is the winter tunic - and could be that in summer they change into white. Don't know yet - so will keep digging.

Love this part of the research - hope you are too...........johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Sorry about the small picture - this is the better size from the last post for the second pic - and as a bonus - I found another - with both summer and winter tunics evident.

 

[Martin Tabony]

I agree that the research is sometimes fun. You should visit the Victorian Wars Forum. You may get some answers there.

Martin

 

[johnnybach]

Had the odd peek there - snag is for me, that this band pic is 1911 - so maybe outside the scope of Queen Vic period? jb

 

[Martin Tabony]

I think it would be worth posting the picture and asking anyway, the band may originate earlier and if not most of us aren't just interested in one period. I've picked up some good info there and of course passed on anything I had.
By the way the Turkish lancer is interesting, other than the astracan cap it's German!

Martin

 

[johnnybach]

Okay - I'll give it a whirl - thanks for the intro.

As to the caps - well - it's always unfortunate that many of these old prints are undated. Maybe they had the hats for Xmas^&grin

Lovely site though. jb

 

[trooper]

You may find this pic of help, Johnny. Still rummaging to find others. Trooper

 

[johnnybach]

Ah yes - indeed it does Trooper. I was thinking that "white plastron" didn't seem to fit my photo - then I got to thinking that maybe a shade of cream - or buff - might have been more in keeping with the climate and normal wear and tear of usage. Imagine clutching a tuba/bombardon.sax etcetera close in to a pure white plastron! It wouldn't have stayed white for two minutes.

Your picture makes far more sense. I have also asked on the Vic Wars Forum - so will see what comes up there.

I have about 130 castings collected for future use - with around 60 more ordered however, so this bit of research can take as long as I want - as it looks like a "sometime in the future" project to complete. I am quite taken with the idea though - as it looks as if nobody has done a set of these before - which I quite like.

Thanks again pal - once again, johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Hi all - well I DID get a response from the Vic Wars Forum Martin - and had some things confirmed.

Firstly - the tunic and trousers were pale blue - with white collar, plastron and cuffs - and the trousers had the double white stripe. I may go for Ivory - or pale buff though.

Either dark blue putees or dark brown/black boots would have been worn - formal gigs would have boots - with white metal spurs.

The Tarboush (not a fez - I'm advised!) was red with a black tassel (probably a word for that too!). I also found out myself, that the pic was taken earlier than 1911 - it was PUBLISHED in that year in a book by Douglas Sladen - titled "Oriental Cairo: The City of the Arabian Knights" (page 10, actually!).

Still not sure about the drum banners - but an educated guess from Vic Wars suggests it may have been dark-green for the background, as this colour was and is very popular in Muslim countries and has special significance for them. The centre would have been a white crescent and star on a red background - as this was the Turkish Flag used at that time by the Egyptian Military. The battle honours embroidered on it would possibly have been in yellow and red - and were first done around 1901/2. As the banners look fairly new - a guess at the date for the pic would be around that time - say - 1905 - ish.

I was also advised that the Egyptian Military bands of that time often had quite a wide repertoire - including opera, British Marches and Eastern music - which were frequently played. The Cavalry Band could go up to 30 strong - but only had 21 horses authorised for payment by the Government. I 'm guessing that any extras would have been paid by the Officers - as in British regiments with bands. I will probably go for six X Fours - plus drum horse - so 25 strong. Horses should be a doddle - as they are all white.

So - not far off having most of the details required - just need to find the time to produce the band sometime, now. Still would like any details or good guesses for the drum banners. Nice - johnnybach

 

[johnnybach]

Just had some input from a guy in Los Angeles, who has spotted that the "boots" in the picture from Trooper - are actually putees (look VERY closely - and the lines show up). They have been tinted after the photo was taken, to look like boots.

I think that these are therefore most likely to be the dark blue - often seen on Egyptian Troops and their allies at this time. Here's an example below, showing Sudanese Infantry fighting alongside the Egyptians (a Simkin print). This ties in with my earlier Uniform Illustration.

 

[johnnybach]

I had a good visit with Giles Browne at Dorset Soldiers today - and, after picking up my order, we discussed the possibility of making up a Mounted Egyptian Cavalry Band - as pictured at the start of this thread. Using the picture as a guide, we both felt it was certainly possible - using parrts drawn from existing castings in his (extensive) range. There are a couple of options open - including an option to use an existing mix of castings that will complement the old Britains Set 115 very well indeed - which are Officer and Lancer types. The arms and musical instruments won't be any problem - and the head I will use, is practically the same as the Set mentioned. The lancer body and cast in tunic can come from any of the Dorset Soldiers Lancer range, which Giles uses as a "spare part" for damaged Britains figures.

So - just needs finalising of all of the small details that I don't know yet ( drum banners, instruments used etc,) and enough intervening time to finish off a few of my ever-growing "stash" - and I will be ready to finalise my order for sometime next year. I have virtually decided already, to make up my band to include six ranks of four abreast musicians - with a drum horse out in front - just as the picture shows - which will mean a twenty-five figure mounted band - around 1905. It should complement Set 115 very well - so I will need to complete a copy of that set too.

I do hope to make it look like "One of those Sets that Britains never made"

So - keep a look-out for them sometime next year. johnnybach

P.S Please do keep looking for any detail that might help - and thanks to all who have contributed already.^&grin