Museum Series (2 Viewers)

[Oldboy]

Doddering about on eBay yesterday morn ,I saw a new listing for the first of the Black Watch figures(along with new F.&I.W.).Of course I hopped right back to Treefrog,and sure enough Museum Series # 1 in stock .Throughout the day then I've waited for someone...anyone to mention this,so the burning question may be asked "What ,Pray tell,is the significance of the Date 1742 ?"Enquiring oldboys want to know.

 

[trooper]

Doddering about on eBay yesterday morn ,I saw a new listing for the first of the Black Watch figures(along with new F.&I.W.).Of course I hopped right back to Treefrog,and sure enough Museum Series # 1 in stock .Throughout the day then I've waited for someone...anyone to mention this,so the burning question may be asked "What ,Pray tell,is the significance of the Date 1742 ?"Enquiring oldboys want to know.

The Britains catalogue quotes this figure as "Black Watch Highlander, Culloden 1742" which is strange as the Black Watch were not at Culloden which itself wasn't until 1746. It can only charitably be put down to a typo, otherwise it would mean very sloppy research.

 

[PolarBear]

Yes the Culloden designation is incorrect. More likely the figure could represent the first combat of the Black Watch:

The Battle of Fontenoy May 11th 1745 which was part of the War of the Austrian Succession or King George’s War. The Highland Regiment was sent to the Continent in June 1743 to participate in this war so the uniform of the WB figure should be correct for that time period. The figure is likely based upon the "officially issued 1742 Representation of Clothing"

Perhaps Ken Osen can clear this up for us.

 

[theBaron]

The Britains catalogue quotes this figure as "Black Watch Highlander, Culloden 1742" which is strange as the Black Watch were not at Culloden which itself wasn't until 1746. It can only charitably be put down to a typo, otherwise it would mean very sloppy research.

I think someone wrote in to "Toy Soldier & Model Figure" about that, too. It came on the heels of the ensign figure, carrying a King's color with a red St. Patrick's saltire, years before it was added.

Prost!
Brad

 

[thebritfarmer]

I think someone wrote in to "Toy Soldier & Model Figure" about that, too. It came on the heels of the ensign figure, carrying a King's color with a red St. Patrick's saltire, years before it was added.

Prost!
Brad

After doing a bit of research it appears the Union Flag we now know did not emerge until 1801.

Therefor this figure

should be carrying this flag

Interesting that I as a Brit never noticed this and because of the forum I did a bit of research and found a few thing I would never have known. I still think it is a great figure regardless.

 

[theBaron]

Right, that's the one, though I thought that the error was pointed out when the prototype figure was unveiled, and it was corrected before going to production. Is that a picture of the prototype, or is that one that you have?

And yes, I agree with you, it's a great figure. I think every one in that range is, the sculpting is excellent, the choice of subject is right up my alley and fills a niche that was not really covered previously. But I think the error indicates the kind of trap that awaits a figure manufacturer, when he produces a historical figure. There's a lot of research to be done, some of the source material is missing, or questionable, and there is a relatively well-informed collectorship out there. And those collectors can be demanding.

Prost!
Brad

 

[thebritfarmer]

Right, that's the one, though I thought that the error was pointed out when the prototype figure was unveiled, and it was corrected before going to production. Is that a picture of the prototype, or is that one that you have?

And yes, I agree with you, it's a great figure. I think every one in that range is, the sculpting is excellent, the choice of subject is right up my alley and fills a niche that was not really covered previously. But I think the error indicates the kind of trap that awaits a figure manufacturer, when he produces a historical figure. There's a lot of research to be done, some of the source material is missing, or questionable, and there is a relatively well-informed collectorship out there. And those collectors can be demanding.

Prost!
Brad

That pic is courtesy of TF so not really sure what version it is. I think Konrad has one of the figures, maybe he could post a pic of his or perhaps Ken could comment.

In regards to research, I agree it can only be as good as the info available. If the material to begin with is wrong the end product is going to be wrong. As I like to say sometimes a bit of artistic licence is necessary. It all good though and I don't take things to serious, it's a hobby after all and just for fun

Scott

 

[theBaron]

Yes, researching can be tough. There's an example over on the German HZ-Forum, discussing the Austrian army of the Seven Years War. It seems the Austrians weren't as good at keeping records as the Prussians were, so there are many questions about their army that seem to be open, like how they deployed into firing lines, the composition of units like grenadier battallions, and uniform details. For a modeler, or for a toy soldier manufacturer, you might just have to pick a point where you have X amount of info and take your chances.

BTW, even with the detailed records the Prussians kept, there are still questions that surface, and arguments about this or that item.

I think that is part of the fun of our hobby, researching the details. Of course, we probably all have an eye for detail, to one degree or another, it's almost a precondition for the hobby.

Prost!
Brad

 

[trooper]

I agree with you, Brad, researching can be tough. But these days, with the amount of information that is available either in book form or on the internet, only minor details are hard to find. Basic data, such as the design of the flag previously discussed, is readily available in books and should be checked. I have been engaged in military research for nigh on fifty years but I still check and double check facts before I use them. It's called taking a pride in your work.

 

[theBaron]

Absolutely. That's why we placed a call to a museum in Vienna, to see if they could tell whether the Hungarian regiments had drums made of brass or wood in the Seven Years War. And unfortunately, they had no reference to any example. The "German" regiments had them made of wood, so the painter will have to make an educated guess and decide what he's going to do.

Here's another one I've been tracking down for a couple of years: What did the flags look like for the regiments of the Duchy of Brunswick in the Seven Years War? There are text descriptions (such as in Pengel/Hurt, who reference Schirmer), but no example survives to our day. They were already worn out by 1763, and replaced with different patterns, similar to the Prussian flags, by the time of the AWI. And the last examples in museums were destroyed in WWII. So, it's an educated guess again, a reconstruction, rather than a depiction.

But as I said, the hunt is the fun part, and I agree, if you pride yourself on these things, it's a serious omission to let something like these mistakes get through, to say nothing of a lapse in quality control, if you have people checking each other's work.

Prost!
Brad

 

[PolarBear]

I just received # 10000 from the Museum collection. WB has corrected the label to read:

"Black Watch Highlander 1740s"

 

[WBritain]

Hi Guys:

Just to clear up a couple things:

The ensign 43099 was corrected in production - the photo posted earlier was of the protoype.

The Black Watch Highlander - #10000 was a typo in the catalog - as Polar Bear points oout the label is correct in it.


Goind points raised by all, research, research and more research. We have a good group of collectors and experts now that help out informally in this department and they have been a wonderful source of information and always a fresh pair of eye to double check things. Thank you.

All the best,

Richard

 

[damian]

Yes, researching can be tough. There's an example over on the German HZ-Forum, discussing the Austrian army of the Seven Years War. It seems the Austrians weren't as good at keeping records as the Prussians were, so there are many questions about their army that seem to be open, like how they deployed into firing lines, the composition of units like grenadier battallions, and uniform details. For a modeler, or for a toy soldier manufacturer, you might just have to pick a point where you have X amount of info and take your chances.

BTW, even with the detailed records the Prussians kept, there are still questions that surface, and arguments about this or that item.

I think that is part of the fun of our hobby, researching the details. Of course, we probably all have an eye for detail, to one degree or another, it's almost a precondition for the hobby.

Prost!
Brad

You cannot beat the Prussians for efficiency. My wife's family are Lutges. Prussians sent out to the Eastern Cape in 1854 as a buffer between the British settlers and the Xhosa. Unfortunatley along the way the Lutges married a few French and Norwegians so my wife is a bit lacking in the efficiency department.

 

[theBaron]

Hi Guys:

Just to clear up a couple things:

The ensign 43099 was corrected in production - the photo posted earlier was of the protoype.

The Black Watch Highlander - #10000 was a typo in the catalog - as Polar Bear points oout the label is correct in it.


Goind points raised by all, research, research and more research. We have a good group of collectors and experts now that help out informally in this department and they have been a wonderful source of information and always a fresh pair of eye to double check things. Thank you.

All the best,

Richard

Thanks for the update, Richard, I thought I had read that the ensign was corrected before going to production.

So, do you have that prototype stored in some glass case, guarded by laser alarms and pressure-sensors?

Another thought, though, is that you should have let some go out like that, then correct the error. They'd be like the legendary Queen with a moustache.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Dragoon]

Just received the BW 1740s Highlander from the good people at Treefrog.
It's a beautiful little figure, looking forward to getting the rest. The info. included hints at some big plans for the Museum Collection. Hopefully these plans will include Black Watch officers for the time periods already represented before moving on to another famous regiment.

 

[WBritain]

Brad - As for the ensign - only one wrong one was ever made and that resides in a "DO NOT USE" shelf at our factory - have to see about "repatriating" it the next tme I am over (must admit slipped my mind the last couple times I was there!).

Dragoon - thank you for the kind comments. You raise a very good point that I would like to throw open to discussion - go deeper into the 42nd with officers, flags, musicians etc. or move onto another Regiment (favorites???) and just add a few 42nd slowly over time????

Look forward to feedback from everyone.

Richard

 

[thebritfarmer]

Hi Richard,

If I may ask what is the goal of the Museum Collection? Is it based on a particular collection from a museum?

In the case of the Crimean, FIW, Napoleonic etc.... there are different regiments and over time I guess these will be added to the various series. I think that the Museum Collection should follow the same suit. Maybe have a few different regiments to chose from.

Scott

 

[Dragoon]

Richard- I would like to see the focus of the Museum Collection fully cover the great history of the 42nd. To fill out the time periods already represented with additional musicians, colours, as well as officers would be GRAND. - Ken

 

[Dragoon]

Richard- I would like to see the focus of the Museum Collection fully cover the great history of the 42nd. To fill out the time periods already represented with additional musicians, colours, as well as officers would be GRAND. - Ken

Just a follow up thought. If the above mentioned plan is too grand, maybe each time period could get one additional figure of the various other members of the regiment. A drummer for the 1740s, a Napoleonic piper, an officer in the Sudan etc. That way there is a pair of figures for each time period showing a great variety of uniforms without getting too bogged down in one particular regiment, even if it is the glorious 42nd.

 

[kogu]

Just a follow up thought. If the above mentioned plan is too grand, maybe each time period could get one additional figure of the various other members of the regiment. A drummer for the 1740s, a Napoleonic piper, an officer in the Sudan etc. That way there is a pair of figures for each time period showing a great variety of uniforms without getting too bogged down in one particular regiment, even if it is the glorious 42nd.

That is one excellent idea, Dragoon, and I hope it finds open ears. Who knows, there might even be a possibility for a mounted figure here and then.