Mystery Of The Zulu Dawn (3 Viewers)

[damian]

ttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaka

Much as I hate to resort to wikipaedia this is quite a balance overview. The story about Shaka making his soldiers dance on thorns to harden their feet was told to us at school. The standard work of reference was Shaka Zulu by EA Ritter. EA Ritter was an alcoholic who wrote the novel whilst staying in a run down boarding house in Umhlanga. It all fitted in very nicely with apartheid propaganda about how dangerous all these native tribes were.

 

[Spitfrnd]

I saw the Lt.'s post and he looks to be correct. I will try to fix the thread when I can. In the meantime, can we get back to the original discussion.

With respect, I am not sure what there is to fix. The sidebar discussion of the analogy to Little Big Horn was not exactly out in left field. There was no battle of wits, no hostility and no offense meant or taken; merely a discussion of lessons to be drawn from Little Big Horn, the appropriate methodology for examining and assessing historical events and the perils of generalizations. As UKReb said more elequently, if this is not an appropriate topic of a forum related to figures derived from history was is? Every thread has its potential for diversions; that is the way of multiparty communication. There is nothing inherently wrong with that and nothing wrong with challenging a position taken which is perceived by another as subject to debate. None of this prevents interested parties, of which I am one, from continuing with the original theme, admidst the minor distractions. I am happy to return to the original discussion but let's not condemn the process because it generates topics within topics. That is part of what makes these discussions interesting.

 

[jazzeum]

I have no problem with the discussion as it developed (although I do want to read it more carefully) but then the separate discussion should have its own separate thread and let the discussion in the original thread go back to the movie.

 

[1879fanatic]

In keeping with the theme that dastardly Cardigan600 started, lets get back to defining the moment with our little men. Here the 1st/24th has their back up against the slope of Isandlwana, gleaming in typical Alymer gloss. They appear to have ammo, but are in reality serving up the last volley fire before resorting to the bayonet.

Now the Little Legion Sarge has the last round to fire .

The result also by LL. Mike

 

[Louis Badolato]

I am sure the Indians would say the same about the yellow legs, especially Custer. Frankly our so-called conquest of the west was hardly our finest hour. We learned alot from our native american neighbors and should have learned more. We also should have kept our treaties, not stolen their lands, not slaughtered their innocents and not interned them on worthless land that not would support them. As to a statue, I am afraid that is just too much like pi**ing in the wind at this point.

Sorry John, I'm with Spitfrnd on this one. The attrocities committed by our forces way outweighed anything the Indians did. You remember a little place called Wounded Knee? Familiar with the Trail of Tears (the Souix's version of our Bataan Death March)? Heard anything about providing them with blankets from small pox hospitals? The statistics speak for themselves. There were 19 Million Indians at the turn of the 19th Century, less than a million at the turn of the 20th Century. What we did to the Indians makes what the Nazi's did to the Jews pale by comparison. If I was alive back then and at wounded knee, I hope I would have picked up a rifle and shot every officer I could get in my sights. I love this country, and am proud to be an American, but what we did to the Indians was the blackest momment in our nations history. All I can say, on a lighter note, is that I'm glad there descendents are taking back America, one quarter at a time (a little casino joke)!

 

[jazzeum]

I've gone back and looked at the whole thread and a fascinating thread it is so I agree with Sptifrnd's criticism of my post. As a result, I respectfully disagree with the Lt.'s observation. There has been a wonderful historical discussion going on and we should all hope that continues. The nature of threads is that sometimes they diverge from the original point. In some cases that is good and in others bad. This is one where it has all been to the good. I hope it continues.

 

[Rob]

Guys,if you had to recommend me one book covering the Zulu wars including all the famous actions,what would it be?.Thanks in advance.

Rob

 

[1879fanatic]

Rob,
Very tough request. It's like one book on WWII! Dr. Adrian Greaves has a book entitled "Crossing the Buffalo" which is superb. Any book with name Ian Knight on it is also recommended. Mike

 

[Rob]

Thank you Mike,much appreciated.

Rob

 

[The Lt.]

I've gone back and looked at the whole thread and a fascinating thread it is so I agree with Sptifrnd's criticism of my post. As a result, I respectfully disagree with the Lt.'s observation. There has been a wonderful historical discussion going on and we should all hope that continues. The nature of threads is that sometimes they diverge from the original point. In some cases that is good and in others bad. This is one where it has all been to the good. I hope it continues.

Brad I must agree with you that it's become a fascinating thread and go along with your observation that members diverge from original point but do disagree that it's all been to the good and like you hope it continues but relating to the original subject...... The Lt.

 

[Cardigan600]

Yo Troopers, ok its big bad Lord Cardigan who started this thread, but fascinating stuff from you learned Gentlemen, I didn't see anything wrong in making comparisons with other major battles as long as we are fair and honest about it, like some of you were over the Indians. So for the first time read up on Isandlwana on Wilki only a quick read, but it didn't take long for me to see why the disaster happened. Bad leadership, forgot about basic infantry tactics, securing the camp and dividing the Troops some went walkabout as the Aussie say, so it was divide and conquer. Shocked to see the results only 1000 Zulu killed and 2000 wounded, now that has to tell you the story, if you compare it to the later battle at Rorkes Drift, less than 200 British and 4000 Zulu, and they sent them packing, and yet 1300 with rifles could only hit 3000 Zulu's with a rifle that had a 1000 yard range and 10 rounds a minute???. So if its ok guys I will make a comparison "The Light Brigade Charge" bad leadership when Lucan got the message off Capt Nolan, all he had to say was, hang on a minute, you are telling me Lord Raglan wants the Light Brigade to commit suicide by charging the main Russian force, has he lost his marbles. I am the Commander of the Cavalry, you get back up to Lord Raglan and ask him to verify he wants the Light Brigade wiped out. The point the Russians wern't going anywhere, it would have took 1/2 hour for Nolan to get back with the right orders, or called his bluff. How Lucan got away with this I dont know, yet he knew he was sending the Light Brigade to certain death and still gave the order. They should have hung him.
Bernard.

 

[trooper]

Bernard, first re your comment regarding fire power of 24th. Don't forget they were using black powder, the fug of which would have obscured the Zulus to a large extent meaning that careful aim would have been difficult, to say the least. I have fired a Martini and the amount of smoke even from a single gun is quite astonishing. And, as I have posted before, once the Zulu got to hand to hand combat the advantage was all with him. At Rorke's Drift the barricades kept them at arms length. To move on to Balaklava, I judge by your logo that you are an ex serviceman and no doubt you will recall from your recruit training that it was always hammered into you that you obeyed the order, THEN complained. The order from Raglan was marked "Immediate", a significant term now, even more so at the time. ADCs were always given a verbal instruction to help clarify instructions and we know that Nolan received such an instruction, his insolent version of those, combined with an extravagant gesture in the vague direction of the intended target, which was clearly visible to those on the heights but obscured from the cavalry's position in the valley was the catalyst that led to the action. Lucan was not entirely to blame, there were faults all along the line.

 

[Cardigan600]

Yo Trooper, You are taught to always obey the last order ie: a General gives a Trooper an order, so he goes to do it, and a Lance Corporal says not to do it, you dont do it. But Lucan was Commander of the Cavalry and on Par with Raglan, he would have looked down the valley and thought the Russians aren't going anywhere the Light Brigade is going to get wiped out, Cavalry dont Charge Batteries of Cannon's, its just not done, so he thinks hang on, you go and get this order verified I am going to lose the Light Brigade here, he had the right to challenge such an order, and nothing could have been done to him, the other order you are taught in the Army is use your initiative, and Lucan being of such high rank didn't do that. In fact on his return to England he was PROMOTED. Gads Sir the man was an idiot.
Bernard.

 

[The Lt.]

Great photos 1879 and joining you in keeping with the original theme is Younghusband along with two other officers and some 60 men of C Company 1/24th Foot who held out for a long time on the slopes of Isandlwana until spending all of their ammunition.......The Lt.

 

[Spitfrnd]

Yo Trooper, You are taught to always obey the last order ie: a General gives a Trooper an order, so he goes to do it, and a Lance Corporal says not to do it, you dont do it. But Lucan was Commander of the Cavalry and on Par with Raglan, he would have looked down the valley and thought the Russians aren't going anywhere the Light Brigade is going to get wiped out, Cavalry dont Charge Batteries of Cannon's, its just not done, so he thinks hang on, you go and get this order verified I am going to lose the Light Brigade here, he had the right to challenge such an order, and nothing could have been done to him, the other order you are taught in the Army is use your initiative, and Lucan being of such high rank didn't do that. In fact on his return to England he was PROMOTED. Gads Sir the man was an idiot.
Bernard.

Interesting discussion, I have always thought the same but have limited knowledge of the facts.

 

[theBaron]

...Gads Sir the man was an idiot.

Interesting... I recall reading that Cardigan was a real ignoramus (no offence meant to our Cardigan), but I don't recall that particular charge against Lucan. But I suppose there were many in command positions who weren't too quick. Weren't many officer positions still a matter of purchases at that time, rather than merit?

Prost!
Brad

 

[trooper]

Lieutenant, what's all this,sir. A member of the NNC in Captain Younghusbands command wearing a jacket of the 24th? He is improperly dressed , sir, idle, IDLE ON PARADE, take his name and put him on a 252 at once!
And Bernard, Lucan was not on a par with Raglan. Raglan commanded the British Army in the Crimea, Lucan was only a Divisional commander, and you are right in that in todays army the use of initiative is encouraged, but in Victoria's army it was frowned upon. Very much so. Again you are right, Lucan was an idiot, they all were, Raglan, Cardigan, Lucan, Nolan the list goes on. Campbell was an idiot to receive cavalry in line instead of forming square, against all accepted rules. Scarlett was an idiot to charge a vastly superior enemy uphill, again against all rules. Those two became heroes because they got away with it, but they were still idiots.

 

[The Lt.]

Lieutenant, what's all this,sir. A member of the NNC in Captain Younghusbands command wearing a jacket of the 24th? He is improperly dressed , sir, idle, IDLE ON PARADE, take his name and put him on a 252 at once!
And Bernard, Lucan was not on a par with Raglan. Raglan commanded the British Army in the Crimea, Lucan was only a Divisional commander, and you are right in that in todays army the use of initiative is encouraged, but in Victoria's army it was frowned upon. Very much so. Again you are right, Lucan was an idiot, they all were, Raglan, Cardigan, Lucan, Nolan the list goes on. Campbell was an idiot to receive cavalry in line instead of forming square, against all accepted rules. Scarlett was an idiot to charge a vastly superior enemy uphill, again against all rules. Those two became heroes because they got away with it, but they were still idiots.

Needed to keep you on your toes Trooper it's possible a few of the NNC may have mixed in and it's known that some were issued red tunics and granted not with the markings of the 24th Foot and by the way most of what you've been feeding us has been in many case way off base. Recommend you spend more time reading up on the events that took place. Now you can return to your favorite subject the cavalry as I depart from this thread....The Lt.

 

[1879fanatic]

Great photos 1879 and joining you in keeping with the original theme is Younghusband along with two other officers and some 60 men of C Company 1/24th Foot who held out for a long time on the slopes of Isandlwana until spending all of their ammunition.......The Lt.

GO TROPHY!!!!

 

[1879fanatic]

Needed to keep you on your toes Trooper it's possible a few of the NNC may have mixed in and it's known that some were issued red tunics and granted not with the markings of the 24th Foot and by the way most of what you've been feeding us has been in many case way off base. Recommend you spend more time reading up on the events that took place. Now you can return to your favorite subject the cavalry as I depart from this thread....The Lt.

Could be a Natal Pioneer on sick detail from putting his tunic in the latrine pile, accounting for the green facing