Napoleon (1 Viewer)

[JPB]

What are the french horsemen that you should use in a diorama where they are attacking the Scottisch Black Watch at Waterloo?

Lancers?
Dragoons?
Cuirassiers?

 

[Blackbob]

Hello JPB,
The 42nd (Highland) Regiment of Foot were not heavily engaged at Waterloo. Although present on the 18th they were most definitely engaged in the desperate fight at Quatre Bras 2 day before. It was there that The Duke of Wellington took refuge in the square eventually formed by the 42nd. during the French attack.
From information provided on the officers killed and wounded in Uniforms at Waterloo by Haythornwaite, Caisin-Scott and Chappell, it records that Captain Menzies of the Grenadier Company had seventeen lance wounds. So lancers were there. there is also mention of cuirassiers attacking in the same source, but in both cases what specific regiments is not mentioned. I recall that there is mention of them being attacked by cavalry from Pire's 2nd cavalry division --so 1st and 6th Chasseurs a Cheval in the 1st brigade and 5th and 6th Lancers in the 2nd brigade. (From memory I do recall that the 8th Cuirassiers were at Quatre Bras, as they rode down the British 69th Regiment of Foot, who lost their king's colour. I cannot say how close to the 42nd they got.) I am sure though the information is out there for you . Sadly most of my reference books are currently unavailable.
Good Hunting,
Blackbob.
P.S. Captain Menzies survived living to a great age..

 

[Warrior]

Hello JPB,
The 42nd (Highland) Regiment of Foot were not heavily engaged at Waterloo. Although present on the 18th they were most definitely engaged in the desperate fight at Quatre Bras 2 day before. It was there that The Duke of Wellington took refuge in the square eventually formed by the 42nd. during the French attack.
From information provided on the officers killed and wounded in Uniforms at Waterloo by Haythornwaite, Caisin-Scott and Chappell, it records that Captain Menzies of the Grenadier Company had seventeen lance wounds. So lancers were there. there is also mention of cuirassiers attacking in the same source, but in both cases what specific regiments is not mentioned. I recall that there is mention of them being attacked by cavalry from Pire's 2nd cavalry division --so 1st and 6th Chasseurs a Cheval in the 1st brigade and 5th and 6th Lancers in the 2nd brigade. (From memory I do recall that the 8th Cuirassiers were at Quatre Bras, as they rode down the British 69th Regiment of Foot, who lost their king's colour. I cannot say how close to the 42nd they got.) I am sure though the information is out there for you . Sadly most of my reference books are currently unavailable.
Good Hunting,
Blackbob.
P.S. Captain Menzies survived living to a great age..

Thanks for this detailed information as it's very informative.

Near as I can tell, there were no highlanders on Wellington's right flank; ie, the area where the majority of the French cavalry attacks were in the late afternoon.

None of my books here on Waterloo indicate that, they were on the left flank where the main French infantry assault took place in the early afternoon.

French cavalry may have still attacked them during the main cavalry assault or in support of the infantry attacks on La Haye Sainte, but I am not 100% sure.

 

[Obee]

From what has been listed looks like you an only have Cuirassiers as are the only suitable French Cavalry that has been made by K&C so far.

Luckily there are a good selection of them to make an impressive charge, seen here on my shelves:



Hope you have a few more Black Watch to fill a square, and I have mine lined up to oppose a charge from the 2nd (Dutch or Red) Lancers of the Imperial Guard:



John

 

[Obee]

These are a couple of pics I took at the museum on the battlefield of Waterloo in Belgium in 2008

This is the Wiki entry for the 360 deg Panorama
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Panorama_of_the_Battle_of_Waterloo

The painting gives a 3D view of the battlefield


Scots defending against cuirassiers


Dutch Lancers attacking.

Maybe there are more detailed imager of this painting somewhere else on the web ????

John

 

[Warrior]

Thanks for sharing images of your collection and of the Waterloo panorama John, glad you were able to see it in person, it's on my bucket list, I am thinking of a trip to Europe in the Spring of 2022 if everything breaks right.

The Waterloo panorama has fascinated me since I was a young boy, I have a book from France that details the panorama tile by tile, it's tremendous.

The panorama depicts one of the numerous futile French cavalry charges, Ney and his aide/staff are riding in with dragoons to his left, Cuirassiers to his front right and Dutch (Guard) lancers to his rear right.

If you have the space, a diorama with Dragoons to the left, Cuirassiers and Dutch lancers to the right would be spectacular, abandoned guns to the front of the road, squares of British Infantry, Dutch/Belgian, Brunswick and Nassau troops behind the road. You could mix K & C and W. Britain figures to depict this.

If you wanted to go just strait up K & C, that would work too with British Infantry and Highlanders in a pinch although again, none of my reference books indicate any highlander units positioned on the British right flank.

I'd love to see Andy expand the Waterloo range and add Brunswick, Dutch/Belgian, Hanovarian and Nassau troops, several of the squares on the British right flank were allied squares, plus Nassau troops defended the woods around Hougoumont and the farm of Papelotte on the far left British flank along with Dutch/Belgians.

Good luck with your diorama, would love to see pictures once it's all set up.

Thanks again for sharing John.

 

[Warrior]

View attachment 276667
Dutch Lancers attacking.

One quick observation; I've seen several pieces of artwork that show the Imperial Guard Dutch/Red Lancers attacking a highlander square, perhaps they veered to the right in their attack and slammed into a highlander square to the right of the main body of British/Allied squares.

So back to the OP's question; Red Lancers would work vs a highlander square if this is the case again based on the paintings on the subject.

 

[JPB]

Thanks everybody for the info and pictures.

So I should be looking for :

NA255
NA253
NA252


NA119
NA117
NA116
NA114

?

 

[Warrior]

Thanks everybody for the info and pictures.

So I should be looking for :

NA255
NA253
NA252


NA119
NA117
NA116
NA114

?

French Dragoons 39-46, 78-81
French Cuirassiers 114-121, 249-255
French Guard/Red Lancers 159-167
French Guard Horse Grenadiers 217-222

French Guard Grenadiers and Chasseurs a Cheval participated in the charges as well as Carabiniers, K & C does not make the latter two types.

There were about 9,000 French cavalry that took part in the attack, which was about 65% of the French cavalry on the field vs about 14,000 Anglo/Allied infantry in squares.................

 

[Barkmann]

Just do not use Hadendoa's.

 

[Obee]

I'd love to see Andy expand the Waterloo range and add Brunswick, Dutch/Belgian, Hanovarian and Nassau troops, several of the squares on the British right flank were allied squares, plus Nassau troops defended the woods around Hougoumont and the farm of Papelotte on the far left British flank along with Dutch/Belgians.

I'm sure they would be very popular amongst collectors wanting a full representation of the allied forces in this battle.

Also other Frenchmen would be welcome, like line cavalry including lancers and chasseurs and light infantry.

Oh well we can only hope ??????

John

 

[Warrior]

I'm sure they would be very popular amongst collectors wanting a full representation of the allied forces in this battle.

Also other Frenchmen would be welcome, like line cavalry including lancers and chasseurs and light infantry.

Oh well we can only hope ??????

John

World War II is the most widely collected toy soldier era, Napoleonics are very popular as well, maybe American Civil War is more popular.

WWII involved German, French, British, Polish, Italian, American, British, Australian, Finnish, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Russian, New Zealand, Indian and Russian armies, most of whom are represented.

The Napoleonic War involved French, British, Russian, Prussian, Austrian, Spanish, Portuguese, Nassau, Dutch Belgian, Brunswick, Hanovarian, Bavarian, Polish, Baden, Wurtemberg, Swiss, Italian, Danish, Saxon, Hesse Darmstadt, Westphalian and Italian armies, most of whom are not represented.

Would love to see any sort of expansion into other nationalities.

 

[Warrior]

World War II is the most widely collected toy soldier era, Napoleonics are very popular as well, maybe American Civil War is more popular.

WWII involved German, French, British, Polish, Italian, American, British, Australian, Finnish, Rumanian, Bulgarian, Russian, New Zealand, Indian and Russian armies, most of whom are represented.

The Napoleonic War involved French, British, Russian, Prussian, Austrian, Spanish, Portuguese, Nassau, Dutch Belgian, Brunswick, Hanovarian, Bavarian, Polish, Baden, Wurtemberg, Swiss, Italian, Danish, Saxon, Hesse Darmstadt, Westphalian and Italian armies, most of whom are not represented.

Would love to see any sort of expansion into other nationalities.

My apologies to our neighbors to the north, ie, Canada, they were involved in WWII as well, no harm, no foul...........besides the Canadiens are up 3-0 after two periods on Vegas tonight, so there you go.

 

[Warrior]

Ok, I've done some research on this and came up with the following; there were three kilted Highland regiments at Waterloo. The first two were the 42nd Royal Highlanders (known to history as The Black Watch) and the 92nd Gordon Highlanders in Pack's brigade. These were too far East to be affected by the French cavalry charges and remained in column throughout the battle.

The 79th Cameron Highlanders were in Kempt's brigade just to the east of the crossroads and, once D'Erlon was thrown back, did form square catching the right hand edge of the attacking French cavalry. Later in the day, the squares in this area took heavy casualties because of the volume of French skirmishers and artillery. Most famously, the Inniskillings were so badly written dow that their dead lay in the shape of a square – they were next to the Camerons.

The 73rd Highlanders (originally 2nd/42nd) were in a double battalion square and took the brunt of the cavalry attacks. However, they abandoned the kilt in 1808. Victorian painters such as Phillipoteaux incorrectly show the 73rd in kilts (as does the artist Dumoulin who painted the rotunda). The only remaining Highland aspect of the 73rd at Waterloo was their pipe major. The 73rd regained the kilt and they along with the 42nd to became The Black Watch under Cardwell.


The other Highland regiment at Waterloo was the Highland Light Infantry who wore trousers and a diced shako.


The more famous Highland square incident is at Quatre Bras when the 42nd moved from line into square when attacked by Lancers and Cuirassiers – the Commanding Officer, Lt Col Sir Robert Macara, was killed and the 42nd were forced in turn to kill the French cavalry from within their newly formed square. 'Black Watch at Bay' is the best piece of art depicting this.

 

[Obee]

The more famous Highland square incident is at Quatre Bras when the 42nd moved from line into square when attacked by Lancers and Cuirassiers – the Commanding Officer, Lt Col Sir Robert Macara, was killed and the 42nd were forced in turn to kill the French cavalry from within their newly formed square. 'Black Watch at Bay' is the best piece of art depicting this.

This is the painting by William Barnes Wollen that you mentioned:



John

 

[Warrior]

This is the painting by William Barnes Wollen that you mentioned:

View attachment 276701

John

Love that painting.

Phillipoteaux's Waterloo is number one/my all time favorite
Waterloo panorama is number two
This one here from Quatre Bras is number three
Borodino panorama is number four
The Prussians storming into Plancenoit is number five

There are countless others I like, but these five are my favorites.

 

[ExRanger]

Glad this convo was started. Need some help. My 13 year old has become obsessed with Napoleon and has learned a great deal on Napolean, his battles and the change of that part of the world at that time. I've been a WW2 K&C guy and have always loved the Nap figures but never pulled the trigger. Well to his surprise I purchased several Nap figures and he was hooked.
What we are I need of are several good illustrated books on Napolean and his battles. Looking for pictures like that were posted above. Looking for the history, especially Waterloo, the Generals, uniforms etc. Future project is a Battle diorama.
Thanks in advance.

 

[Warrior]

Glad this convo was started. Need some help. My 13 year old has become obsessed with Napoleon and has learned a great deal on Napolean, his battles and the change of that part of the world at that time. I've been a WW2 K&C guy and have always loved the Nap figures but never pulled the trigger. Well to his surprise I purchased several Nap figures and he was hooked.
What we are I need of are several good illustrated books on Napolean and his battles. Looking for pictures like that were posted above. Looking for the history, especially Waterloo, the Generals, uniforms etc. Future project is a Battle diorama.
Thanks in advance.

Rather than buying books blind, the best advice I can offer is there is a great little book store in New Jersey called On Military Matters, I believe he's in Hopewell, you can google it.

He has limited shop hours, but his store sells military books only, it's a great place to visit.

There is a series of heavily illustrated booklets called Gloire & Empire, French text, but they focus on specific battles; Ligny, Waterloo, Wagram, Borodino, etc, etc. There are also some tremendous books again in French text from a publisher called Le Livre Chez Vous, they focus on campaigns like Spain, Austria in 1809, Russia in 1812, Germany in 1813, France in 1814, they are loaded with illustrations but are north of 200.00 each.

You can poke around in the store and I am sure you'll find a few books that will fit the bill for you and your son.

 

[Grognard]

Glad this convo was started. Need some help. My 13 year old has become obsessed with Napoleon and has learned a great deal on Napolean, his battles and the change of that part of the world at that time. I've been a WW2 K&C guy and have always loved the Nap figures but never pulled the trigger. Well to his surprise I purchased several Nap figures and he was hooked.
What we are I need of are several good illustrated books on Napolean and his battles. Looking for pictures like that were posted above. Looking for the history, especially Waterloo, the Generals, uniforms etc. Future project is a Battle diorama.
Thanks in advance.

Great to see your 13 year old interest in Napoleon ! You can point it to the 100+ Napoleonic trivia questions I posted on this forum a few years ago. Here is the last one:

Napoleonic Trivia # 109 (treefrogtreasures.com)

I have also posted many pictures of my visit to the Musée de l'Emperi in France which has the best collection of Napoleonic uniforms, etc.

Grognard's Album: Musée de l'Emperi - July 2018 - Part 1 (treefrogtreasures.com)

Grognard's Album: Musée de l'Emperi - July 2018 - Part 2 (treefrogtreasures.com)

Here are also a few pics I took at the Musée de l'Armée and Musée de la Légion d'honneur in Paris

Grognard's Album: Paris - Musée de l"armée - 2016 (treefrogtreasures.com)

Grognard's Album: Musée de l'Armée - Army Museum - Paris (treefrogtreasures.com)

Grognard's Album: Paris - Musée de la Legion d'Honneur 2016 (treefrogtreasures.com)

I have many Nap books but they are mostly in French...

 

[JPB]

The first two were the 42nd Royal Highlanders (known to history as The Black Watch) and the 92nd Gordon Highlanders in Pack's brigade.

So this one

https://www.kingandcountry.com/officer-regimental-color-p-5404.html

is 92nd Gordon ?