Napoleonic Wars - Waterloo as post script (3 Viewers)

[Johnboy]

[ His death like all deaths left a gap amongst the living, but his would not be filled. The fiasco of the cavalry charges at Waterloo is evidence of the regret Napoleon would suffer for such losses of leadership.[/QUOTE]
Hi,
You post some interesting information, Like you, I have a great interest in Napoleonic history. Although I have some "serious" tomes, I must admit that a picture is worth a 1000 words and I will acquire illustrated books if they are well done. One of my favourites is "Soldats et uniformes du Premier Empire" by F Hourtoulle ,plates by J Girbal & P Courcelle. (it has also been translated from French) It depicts everything you mentioned and more......highly recommended.
As you would expect I initially studied this subject via the British perspective ,while serving in HMF in Germany I got to visit the KGL museum etc. Also got to Waterloo on 18th June 1983 (the place was full of French re enactors and not a Brit in site!) My own Regt. missed Waterloo by a few days as it was still on the"High Seas" returning from the American war, we luckily missed the fiasco at New Orleans, and took up residence in Paris for a couple of years (it was the old Fifth foot).
As you mentioned the French cavalry charges ... What was Ney thinking at Waterloo ? He also failed Napoleon at Quatre-Bras, not his finest hour.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Yes, a great team and their work is very useful. I have their books on Wagram and Jena-Auerstadt. They are a feast for Napoleonic buffs. I cannot fault their consistent research and analysis on the subject and the writing style is very engaging.
Your own service history is a great motive while mine is mainly academic curiosity stemming from acquaintance with Sociology, Politics and Economics.
Ney was obviously not focused on the task at hand - his neck was on the line after a series of rapid changes of allegiance. For the sake of all the soldiers who paid for those decisions, Napoleon should not have given him a command, and Ney should have declined and gone home. Tragically, the goals of all were obscure, and the means were always going to be confusing.
There is a tendency to forget that the Revolution and the subsequent wars were about the struggle of Republicanism against Monarchy, and that Waterloo did little to end that long and bloody engagement. Napoleon, all said and done, was just one of many major players in that struggle; Ney hardly warrants a mention.

 

[Johnboy]

There is a tendency to forget that the Revolution and the subsequent wars were about the struggle of Republicanism against Monarchy, and that Waterloo did little to end that long and bloody engagement. Napoleon, all said and done, was just one of many major players in that struggle; Ney hardly warrants a mention.

I agree , Waterloo only restored the status quo and threw France into turmoil for decades to come. However , Napoleon himself restored a form of Monarchy by crowning himself Emperor in 1804!
A classical case of "You can fool some fo the people some of the time". His cleverest moves were the forming of the Imperial Guard, then getting them to love him through special privileges, then his surveillance via secret police ,this helped to keep him in power for a decade after his "Coronation" .
It seemed that Napoleon was determined to be seen as an equal by the Europeon royals , but he was only deluding himself. As far as the tragic deaths of thousands of his men on a lost cause at Waterloo is concerned , many of them marched to their deaths shouting "Vive L' Empereur". Perhaps you can fool some of the people all of the time?

 

[Fitzgibbon]

I agree , Waterloo only restored the status quo and threw France into turmoil for decades to come. However , Napoleon himself restored a form of Monarchy by crowning himself Emperor in 1804!
A classical case of "You can fool some fo the people some of the time". His cleverest moves were the forming of the Imperial Guard, then getting them to love him through special privileges, then his surveillance via secret police ,this helped to keep him in power for a decade after his "Coronation" .
It seemed that Napoleon was determined to be seen as an equal by the Europeon royals , but he was only deluding himself. As far as the tragic deaths of thousands of his men on a lost cause at Waterloo is concerned , many of them marched to their deaths shouting "Vive L' Empereur". Perhaps you can fool some of the people all of the time?

I believe people generally fool themselves. Napoleon emerged as leader from a social upheaval, the likes of which the World had never witnessed. The man could not have gained power but for that situation. The king was dead, but, as Britain had discovered, people find that they need that titled figurehead for social structure. The idea of a Republic was not fully formed and had no wide appeal outside France - and America where it had a different support base and structure. Europe was not ready, and the reactionary force for Monarchy proved too strong. The overwhelming numbers of soldiers who died for their monarchs cannot be overlooked - what was in it for them? The Marxist analysis of revolution is quite accurate applied to this history.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

"His cleverest moves were the forming of the Imperial Guard, then getting them to love him through special privileges, then his surveillance via secret police ,this helped to keep him in power for a decade "


No shortage of clever moves; even some wise moves, but perhaps just bit off more that it was possible for one man to chew. The Code Napoleon is maintained to this day. The propaganda machine? What country does not have one now? The Imperial Guard was quite novel for the time but this idea can be found in most armies since. And such copying is tacit recognition of great ideas. The achievements that changed the world are what marks him as a major player in History. But, at the end of the day, he was only human and destined for a fall against mass support for opposing ideas.

 

[Johnboy]

The Imperial Guard was quite novel for the time but this idea can be found in most armies since. And such copying is tacit recognition of great ideas. The achievements that changed the world are what marks him as a major player in History. But, at the end of the day, he was only human and destined for a fall against mass support for opposing ideas.[/QUOTE]
I believe Napoleon modelled the Imperial guard on the likes of the Roman Praetorian guard. He had some very good ideas politically....as you said "Code Napoleon" ,which in a slightly different form still motivates France and by extention even the EU!
I think you are right about British Royalty which is still misunderstood in parts of the world. When I took the oath of loyalty on enlistment, it was to the Queen ...a figurehead ,and not to parliament. In some countries, military personnel actually take their oath to a political figurehead,I believe U.S. personnel take their oath to the President who after all is a politician (not sure if this is still the case)
But back to Napoleon.......He saw his chance and took it. The revolution was stalling and the people were disenchanted with rule by committee. The stage was set for a strong leader, and as they say "The rest is History"

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Napoleon was as much shaped by the France he ruled as its direction was decided by him, but the context of that development was the greater global contest between Republicanism and Monarchy. That France needed to escape from the days of The Terror is undeniable; arguably, Napoleon enabled the way forward. That his ego came to rule what was initially a wiser strategy is also undeniable, but then absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Napoleonic Wars as a chapter in history provide a colourful tapestry on which are many interwoven narratives. From his elevation to First Consul, which appears to have been largely the work of his brothers' intriguing, rising to the Austrian Campaign as apogee, and descending through the Russian winter to the finality of Leipzig, Napoleon's personal career is just one of those many narratives. It is a large story like so many of the others, but that is the topic of the thread. These stories are not in Waterloo. At best, this was a police action by the occupying powers after the Wars were settled.

Allowing the elevated status has the effect of wiping away all trace of the real and rich history of the Napoleonic Wars - fourteen years of dynamic change in the world politics. The knock on effect is to remove or obscure the answers to important questions about development of today's status quo.
The diorama maker, in search of the novel subject, must seek out the submerged stories, and, in so doing, unearth questions about why things are hidden. Part of the story telling is posing questions for the audience, which is the measure of engagement. The art followed must be viewed with a critical eye to avoid being led to the incredulous portrayal of events - all reference material is not necessarily good reference material. There are many examples of dynamic cavalry charges portrayed in fine art, but charges that never occurred because the regiment portrayed was hundreds of miles away. The sketch of Death of the Centaur in Hourtoulle's Wagram, is another example of the critical eye required (as previously discussed). Even good reference material requires a critical eye.
I am very fond of the French Imperial Guard figures that have recently been released by K&C, attired in bicorne hat and greatcoat. Greatcoats in summer heat in Begium? I don't think so. Suitable perhaps for a different battle from Waterloo? Definitely. Bicornes? What period? Austerlitz? Could be. Jena? Perhaps. At this earlier point, the whole army wore bicornes except light infantry who had a shako with a plume on the side. Andy's Hussars are definitely, as stated by him, from the earlier period as determined by the fashion of pigtails. So there are figures within the various 60mm matte ranges of French that could meet the needs of representing a battle within the envelope of the Napoleonic Wars.

Several manufacturers have made Austrians though cavalry is very scarce. TGM have dabbled several times and have some credible contributions. The Prussians and KGL are quite good but, the halt indicates that perhaps I am not the only one bored with Waterloo. John Jenkins has led the charge on economy packages with multiple figures, and two cavalry in a box for $160.00 looks as good as 10 infantry for $250.00. I'd think that artillery multi packs would be a big hit - something like three guns with 15 crew and commander for $549 would make it easier to develop dioramas of scale while increasing the turnover per sale for the business side.

A ten pack of Napoleonic Infantry in square would be a real hit - three ranks of three standing/kneeling firing/reloading with a sergeant shouting commands. Two sets with a painted backdrop and you have a square against which can be counterposed a few cavalry figures to complete the represented narrative - and this will fit on an A4 diorama easily accommodated by a home shelf. John is again the diorama designer and caterer - witness his recent releases for series - even to the bases if you want the compromise between display and diorama off-the-hook.

Casualty figures are always a problem. Cannot have a believable battle scene without them but don't want to pay the premium you paid for the hero pieces in the dio. Technology is slowly opening possibilities for such problems. Water has long been a problem like this but there is growing selection of two-part products that are workable and economical - and produce a result that you can stand figures on for longer than it takes to photograph them. How hard can it be to produce a figure face down in the water for less than half the price of a premium figure? And since you are going to submerge him in the pond, you certainly won't want to pay for the whole nine yards! It's not a collectible so a box is not required - nor is a photograph! This is a diorama accessory that requires manufacture and marketing as such - not as a collectible.

 

[nysoldiers]

Napoleon was as much shaped by the France he ruled as its direction was decided by him, but the context of that development was the greater global contest between Republicanism and Monarchy. That France needed to escape from the days of The Terror is undeniable; arguably, Napoleon enabled the way forward. That his ego came to rule what was initially a wiser strategy is also undeniable, but then absolute power corrupts absolutely. The Napoleonic Wars as a chapter in history provide a colourful tapestry on which are many interwoven narratives. From his elevation to First Consul, which appears to have been largely the work of his brothers' intriguing, rising to the Austrian Campaign as apogee, and descending through the Russian winter to the finality of Leipzig, Napoleon's personal career is just one of those many narratives. It is a large story like so many of the others, but that is the topic of the thread. These stories are not in Waterloo. At best, this was a police action by the occupying powers after the Wars were settled.

Allowing the elevated status has the effect of wiping away all trace of the real and rich history of the Napoleonic Wars - fourteen years of dynamic change in the world politics. The knock on effect is to remove or obscure the answers to important questions about development of today's status quo.
The diorama maker, in search of the novel subject, must seek out the submerged stories, and, in so doing, unearth questions about why things are hidden. Part of the story telling is posing questions for the audience, which is the measure of engagement. The art followed must be viewed with a critical eye to avoid being led to the incredulous portrayal of events - all reference material is not necessarily good reference material. There are many examples of dynamic cavalry charges portrayed in fine art, but charges that never occurred because the regiment portrayed was hundreds of miles away. The sketch of Death of the Centaur in Hourtoulle's Wagram, is another example of the critical eye required (as previously discussed). Even good reference material requires a critical eye.
I am very fond of the French Imperial Guard figures that have recently been released by K&C, attired in bicorne hat and greatcoat. Greatcoats in summer heat in Begium? I don't think so. Suitable perhaps for a different battle from Waterloo? Definitely. Bicornes? What period? Austerlitz? Could be. Jena? Perhaps. At this earlier point, the whole army wore bicornes except light infantry who had a shako with a plume on the side. Andy's Hussars are definitely, as stated by him, from the earlier period as determined by the fashion of pigtails. So there are figures within the various 60mm matte ranges of French that could meet the needs of representing a battle within the envelope of the Napoleonic Wars.

Several manufacturers have made Austrians though cavalry is very scarce. TGM have dabbled several times and have some credible contributions. The Prussians and KGL are quite good but, the halt indicates that perhaps I am not the only one bored with Waterloo. John Jenkins has led the charge on economy packages with multiple figures, and two cavalry in a box for $160.00 looks as good as 10 infantry for $250.00. I'd think that artillery multi packs would be a big hit - something like three guns with 15 crew and commander for $549 would make it easier to develop dioramas of scale while increasing the turnover per sale for the business side.

A ten pack of Napoleonic Infantry in square would be a real hit - three ranks of three standing/kneeling firing/reloading with a sergeant shouting commands. Two sets with a painted backdrop and you have a square against which can be counterposed a few cavalry figures to complete the represented narrative - and this will fit on an A4 diorama easily accommodated by a home shelf. John is again the diorama designer and caterer - witness his recent releases for series - even to the bases if you want the compromise between display and diorama off-the-hook.

Casualty figures are always a problem. Cannot have a believable battle scene without them but don't want to pay the premium you paid for the hero pieces in the dio. Technology is slowly opening possibilities for such problems. Water has long been a problem like this but there is growing selection of two-part products that are workable and economical - and produce a result that you can stand figures on for longer than it takes to photograph them. How hard can it be to produce a figure face down in the water for less than half the price of a premium figure? And since you are going to submerge him in the pond, you certainly won't want to pay for the whole nine yards! It's not a collectible so a box is not required - nor is a photograph! This is a diorama accessory that requires manufacture and marketing as such - not as a collectible.

Good points and ideas, especially multi-packs with backdrops and inexpensive casualties.
I have done a diorama of Leipzig using ATS, Little Legion, Trophy and several other glossy makers. ATS can produce matt or glossy but their figures are 54mm and not compatible with K&C, JJD, TCS, TG or even WB....in my opinion. Their range, however, is quite extensive with French, Prussian, Austrians, Russians, Swedes, British, Spanish and other lesser players. One day I will get around to posting photos. I think my diorama had almost 500 figures including cavalry and artillery.
Recently I added TCS Russian Grenadiers to go with my older K&C Russians and now they are releasing artillery and I believe cavalry will come shortly. I was hoping that JJD would expand their line of Napoleon in Spain. Their French line infantry are suitable for 1807 through 1812 campaigns.
Regarding the "great coats" on the French forces at Waterloo I agree that the Guard probably didn't wear them but many recruits did not have adequate uniforms so they may have worn them over piecemeal uniforms.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Good points and ideas, especially multi-packs with backdrops and inexpensive casualties.
I have done a diorama of Leipzig using ATS, Little Legion, Trophy and several other glossy makers. ATS can produce matt or glossy but their figures are 54mm and not compatible with K&C, JJD, TCS, TG or even WB....in my opinion. Their range, however, is quite extensive with French, Prussian, Austrians, Russians, Swedes, British, Spanish and other lesser players. One day I will get around to posting photos. I think my diorama had almost 500 figures including cavalry and artillery.
Recently I added TCS Russian Grenadiers to go with my older K&C Russians and now they are releasing artillery and I believe cavalry will come shortly. I was hoping that JJD would expand their line of Napoleon in Spain. Their French line infantry are suitable for 1807 through 1812 campaigns.
Regarding the "great coats" on the French forces at Waterloo I agree that the Guard probably didn't wear them but many recruits did not have adequate uniforms so they may have worn them over piecemeal uniforms.

Hi,
Yes, probably were a few ad-hoc uniforms at waterloo but the requirement for Old Guard entry prohibited 'recruits' - a large proportion had been with Napoleon at Elba. But poetic licence is cool - it adds texture to the mostly legendary tale of Waterloo; AND creates possibilities for other things :salute::

JJD French in Spain is a tremendous source of French for earlier campaigns across Europe - and they are still available in multipacks. They will certainly be crossing the Danube sometime soon {sm4}.

I had a fairly long flirtation with 54mm a long time ago with Airfix and Historex kits, and would be delighted to see some kits in 60mm but I haven't enough time left to wait; it will be do without or produce my own. I was never a sculptor but enjoyed reworking other people's effort with a pyrograver - fabulous tool for creating horse hair detail and moustaches. It was also useful in converting some of GW LOTR plastic kits. Plastic is still a preferred kit base though I have converted a few metal figures. Jim Bowie as the amorous hussar was a fun project.

 

[Jack]

Several manufacturers have made Austrians though cavalry is very scarce. TGM have dabbled several times and have some credible contributions. The Prussians and KGL are quite good but, the halt indicates that perhaps I am not the only one bored with Waterloo. John Jenkins has led the charge on economy packages with multiple figures, and two cavalry in a box for $160.00 looks as good as 10 infantry for $250.00. I'd think that artillery multi packs would be a big hit - something like three guns with 15 crew and commander for $549 would make it easier to develop dioramas of scale while increasing the turnover per sale for the business side.

A ten pack of Napoleonic Infantry in square would be a real hit - three ranks of three standing/kneeling firing/reloading with a sergeant shouting commands. Two sets with a painted backdrop and you have a square against which can be counterposed a few cavalry figures to complete the represented narrative - and this will fit on an A4 diorama easily accommodated by a home shelf. John is again the diorama designer and caterer - witness his recent releases for series - even to the bases if you want the compromise between display and diorama off-the-hook.

Casualty figures are always a problem. Cannot have a believable battle scene without them but don't want to pay the premium you paid for the hero pieces in the dio. Technology is slowly opening possibilities for such problems. Water has long been a problem like this but there is growing selection of two-part products that are workable and economical - and produce a result that you can stand figures on for longer than it takes to photograph them. How hard can it be to produce a figure face down in the water for less than half the price of a premium figure? And since you are going to submerge him in the pond, you certainly won't want to pay for the whole nine yards! It's not a collectible so a box is not required - nor is a photograph! This is a diorama accessory that requires manufacture and marketing as such - not as a collectible.

I like the idea of a multipack to offset the cost of establishing oneself in a range. I moved on from Waterloo and was looking around for a new range. I loved K&C's ECW but felt that I would be replacing one range that required multiples with another. I do not flatter myself that my experience is a universal one but it was a purchasing decision made not on the question of quality or price (excellent figures and I believe that price set for a product is up to the makers and the purchase decision is up to me) but on my capacity to engage in a range in the depth that I wanted. The K&C and JJD packs and group sets from various ranges are a good idea but I would love to see it become a regular policy (if possible ... none of the makers have opened their books to me) rather than create discussions about agenda and whether it is only pertains to figures that have not sold or that it represents the failure of a range (or the jumping the shark moment that hints at a range's impending demise).

I do love the idea of massed artillery. Now that is an idea!

 

[Johnboy]

Casualty figures are always a problem. Cannot have a believable battle scene without them but don't want to pay the premium you paid for the hero pieces in the dio. Technology is slowly opening possibilities for such problems. Water has long been a problem like this but there is growing selection of two-part products that are workable and economical - and produce a result that you can stand figures on for longer than it takes to photograph them. How hard can it be to produce a figure face down in the water for less than half the price of a premium figure? And since you are going to submerge him in the pond, you certainly won't want to pay for the whole nine yards! It's not a collectible so a box is not required - nor is a photograph! This is a diorama accessory that requires manufacture and marketing as such - not as a collectible.[/QUOTE]
Hi ,
I agree with your assessment re. casualty figures. I admit that I begrudge paying a premium for what is essentially half a painted figure that is usually lying on the ground and partially out of sight. Britains have developed some nice Nap casualties recently, and as stated, you can't have a realistic battle without them.
My way around it is to convert some of my older figures that aren't up to the current figures re. quality. I've even cheated by pushing whole plastic figures into a medium like Das then repainting them with a suitable amount of gore once dried.
Now.....going back to Waterloo - (do I hear a groan??) As far as uniforms are concerned, just about anything goes for the French. During archaeological digs on the battlefield ,pre 1812 uniform metal badges etc. have been unearthed in large numbers. Being in western Europe , and having easy access for older French veteran volunteers, it is well documented that they turned up in just about any uniform items they had retained in dusty wardrobes. Although logical wonders were performed by the French depots it did not run to new uniforms for all........also many soldiers who had stayed with the new (ish) Royal army then opted for Napoleon , turned up in their new outfits .

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Casualty figures are always a problem. Cannot have a believable battle scene without them but don't want to pay the premium you paid for the hero pieces in the dio. Technology is slowly opening possibilities for such problems. Water has long been a problem like this but there is growing selection of two-part products that are workable and economical - and produce a result that you can stand figures on for longer than it takes to photograph them. How hard can it be to produce a figure face down in the water for less than half the price of a premium figure? And since you are going to submerge him in the pond, you certainly won't want to pay for the whole nine yards! It's not a collectible so a box is not required - nor is a photograph! This is a diorama accessory that requires manufacture and marketing as such - not as a collectible.

Hi ,
I agree with your assessment re. casualty figures. I admit that I begrudge paying a premium for what is essentially half a painted figure that is usually lying on the ground and partially out of sight. Britains have developed some nice Nap casualties recently, and as stated, you can't have a realistic battle without them.
My way around it is to convert some of my older figures that aren't up to the current figures re. quality. I've even cheated by pushing whole plastic figures into a medium like Das then repainting them with a suitable amount of gore once dried.
Now.....going back to Waterloo - (do I hear a groan??) As far as uniforms are concerned, just about anything goes for the French. During archaeological digs on the battlefield ,pre 1812 uniform metal badges etc. have been unearthed in large numbers. Being in western Europe , and having easy access for older French veteran volunteers, it is well documented that they turned up in just about any uniform items they had retained in dusty wardrobes. Although logical wonders were performed by the French depots it did not run to new uniforms for all........also many soldiers who had stayed with the new (ish) Royal army then opted for Napoleon , turned up in their new outfits .[/QUOTE]
Hi,
Yes, 100 days is less than the optimum time needed to equip and uniform an army. Indeed, in the 21st Century, it cannot even be done with toy soldiers

 

[Johnboy]

Hi ,

Hi,
Yes, 100 days is less than the optimum time needed to equip and uniform an army. Indeed, in the 21st Century, it cannot even be done with toy soldiers

Hi...........Your shortest and most amusing quote.............ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Hi...........Your shortest and most amusing quote.............ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,

Hi,
Humour is the lifeblood of people who spend a lot of time looking at what exists and trying to work out how it got that way. One usually comes across human irrationality, and humour will sustain you through the tragedy. Toy soldiers represent some of history's darkest days and yet we call them toys; there's got to be humour there .

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Hi...........Your shortest and most amusing quote.............ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,ha,

Hi again,
Your use of plastic figures and Das is not what I would call cheating but rather creative economy . The eye of the audience only ever sees the surface; if that surface supports credibly the story being told, who would care what lies beneath? I think you have provided a very useful tip for diorama makers. Any clues for the skeleton in the trench?

 

[Johnboy]

Hi again,
I think you have provided a very useful tip for diorama makers. Any clues for the skeleton in the trench?

Hi well.................It is Halloween, there must be something lying around to use....perhaps from a Hobbit cemetary

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Hi well.................It is Halloween, there must be something lying around to use....perhaps from a Hobbit cemetary

GW do have a few bones but the scale is wrong by miles . I will keep hunting. If you locate some, let me know.
Bob

 

[Johnboy]

GW do have a few bones but the scale is wrong by miles . I will keep hunting. If you locate some, let me know.
Bob

Hi.....OK, will keep an eye out. The chances are that any WW1 overlooked trench death will be clothed to a certain degree. All you should need are head and hands . I did something similar years ago with a small scalpel and a cocktail stick using Milliput. Once again the paintwork hides some anatomical problems as does a helmet (cocktail sticks are good for eye sockets)have a go!
Regards,
John.

 

[Fitzgibbon]

Hi.....OK, will keep an eye out. The chances are that any WW1 overlooked trench death will be clothed to a certain degree. All you should need are head and hands . I did something similar years ago with a small scalpel and a cocktail stick using Milliput. Once again the paintwork hides some anatomical problems as does a helmet (cocktail sticks are good for eye sockets)have a go!
Regards,
John.

Thanks John - so the skeleton in the closet turns out to be just head and hands . Shattered. Good point though; the photos indicate that uniform material is more resilient than flesh when it comes to decomposition. Our sculptor can probably spare some time for a lesson on skulls.