Operation “Overlord” - The Russian view 1 part (2 Viewers)

[theBaron]

Well, what would you say to this:

The Soviet Union alone indeed could have won World War II, but would have done it at a much slower pace, believes British historian Professor Geoffrey Roberts.

I say that you haven't refuted my statement that most of the people who believe the Soviet Union could have defeated Germany alone are probably Russian.

 

[jazzeum]

I feel like we're in a 1950s time warp here. Be that as it may, it is the view of many authors I have read over the years (don't ask me to cite them) that the Russians could not have won the war or survived, in the War's early stages, without material help from the US and the U.K. Now, is it possible that the Russians could have won without American and British troops. Yes, theoretically, but it would have been at a staggering cost. If the Russians felt that they could win without assistance, why was Stalin constantly demanding the creation of a second front; he was not asking, he was demanding. The predicament that the Russians found themselves in June 1941 can be laid at Stalin's feet; he had killed or exiled most of his best generals and officers and constantly dismissed warnings from the Army that Hitler was getting ready to break their pact and attack him, almost to the day the Germans invaded Russia. You may want to read this book, What Stalin Knew: The Enigma of Barbarossa, by David Murphy.

 

[ccdc11]

Excellent post Brad.
My understanding is the USA provided Russia with north of 17 million tons of materiel between 1941 and 1945.
I doubt the Russians could have won without help from the allies in material in the same way the allies would have found it near impossible to invade Europe had there not been a eastern front.

 

[tank]

I feel like we're in a 1950s time warp here. Be that as it may, it is the view of many authors I have read over the years (don't ask me to cite them) that the Russians could not have won the war or survived, in the War's early stages, without material help from the US and the U.K. Now, is it possible that the Russians could have won without American and British troops. Yes, theoretically, but it would have been at a staggering cost. If the Russians felt that they could win without assistance, why was Stalin constantly demanding the creation of a second front; he was not asking, he was demanding. The predicament that the Russians found themselves in June 1941 can be laid at Stalin's feet; he had killed or exiled most of his best generals and officers and constantly dismissed warnings from the Army that Hitler was getting ready to break their pact and attack him, almost to the day the Germans invaded Russia. You may want to read this book, What Stalin Knew: The Enigma of Barbarossa, by David Murphy.

Do you actually know why was Stalin constantly demanding the creation of a second front?

Any one of you would do the same if your partner would not deliver what he was promised to do.
It is strange that you don’t know those facts.

The Soviet Union honorably fulfilled its allied duty. Unfortunately, this did not always happen on the part of the Western Allies. “It would be a catastrophe,” Churchill wrote, “if we firmly abided by all our agreements” [6]. The violation of the undertaken obligations is especially evident when considering the question of opening a Second Front in Western Europe. An agreement was reached on the opening of the Second Front in 1942. However, the US and British governments did not fulfill their promise either in 1942 or in 1943. The second front in Europe began to operate two years later than was envisaged by the obligations assumed by the USA and England to the USSR. This is explained by the desire of the ruling circles of these countries to shift the burdens of war to the USSR. The United States National Archives contains the minutes of the meeting of the joint Anglo-American headquarters of August 20, 1943, during which the prospect of US and British policies towards the USSR was considered. Paragraph nine of the protocol “Military considerations in relations with Russia” indicates that the question was discussed whether the Germans “would help” the entry of Anglo-American troops into German territory “to repulse the Russians”. It is hard to imagine that in 1943, when the Soviet Union paved the way for the victory of the anti-fascist coalition in a difficult struggle with Germany, the leading military leaders of the United States and England discussed this issue. However, this was so [7].

 

[jazzeum]

That Stalin was demanding a second front just points to the fact that Russia couldn't do it by themselves, which you haven't refuted, because you can't.

I could find no source for your Churchill quote. Please provide one. The Allies were not in a position to initiate a second front in Western Europe in 1942. Britain certainly couldn't and the US had just gotten into the war, facts you conveniently forget to mention.

Do us a big favor, give us books or sites that are objective and sites that are in English. Otherwise, don't bother posting Stalinist propaganda.

 

[tank]

Excellent post Brad.
My understanding is the USA provided Russia with north of 17 million tons of materiel between 1941 and 1945.
I doubt the Russians could have won without help from the allies in material in the same way the allies would have found it near impossible to invade Europe had there not been a eastern front.

One of the biggest myth is that only because of Lend-Lease Russia wasn’t defeated by Gemany.
Please trust the facts, not the propaganga.

In the publications of Russian authors, it was emphasized that the military-industrial, raw-material and food assistance provided by the USA and England, carried out in accordance with the Lend-Lease Act (officially called the “US Defense Assistance Act”), undoubtedly contributed to the strengthening of the combat power of the USSR. Soviet people expressed their gratitude to the American and English peoples who helped the Red Army to smash the Wehrmacht divisions. The Soviet press and the writings of historians emphasized that the help of the Allies with weapons and various materials played a positive, but insignificant role in the struggle of the Soviet state against fascist aggression. Such an assessment was substantiated by comparative data on the ratio of Lend-Lease supplies to domestic industry and agricultural products; military equipment received from the USA, England and Canada and produced in the USSR during the Great Patriotic War.

Of particular importance to the USSR were the supplies by the Allies of military equipment and weapons, which in large quantities were required by the front. During the war years from the USA (until September 20, 1945), guns of various calibres — 7509, aircraft — 14,450 arrived in the USSR under Lend-Lease (there are other data that do not change the order of the ratio of military equipment and weapons received and produced in the USSR), tanks and self-propelled artillery mounts - 6903 [9].

According to Soviet historians, US supplies amounted to: 1.6% for artillery, 12.5% ​​for aviation, 6.7% for tanks and self-propelled guns relative to those produced in the USSR
From June 1941 to August 1945, the Soviet Union produced 112.1 thousand combat aircraft, 102.8 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns, 482.2 thousand artillery pieces, 351.8 thousand mortars. Thus, American deliveries amounted to 1.6% for artillery, 12.5% ​​for aviation, and 6.7% for tanks and self-propelled guns relative to what was produced in the Soviet Union.

As for other types of weapons, as well as ammunition, their specific gravity was even less and amounted, for example, to machine guns only 1.7%, to pistols - 0.8%, to shells - 0.6% and mortars - 0.1 % of the level of production in the USSR.

Of great value to the Red Army were deliveries from the USA of cars - 427 thousand units. Of the total number of vehicles in the Armed Forces, they amounted to 5.4% in January 1943, 19% in January 1944, and more than 30% in January 1945 [10].

US President Franklin D. Roosevelt signs Lend-Lease Act
The logical conclusion is drawn from this: not the help of the allies played a decisive role in providing the Red Army with weapons and military equipment. On the military weapons, which the people supplied their army, stood the Soviet mark. Domestic researchers rightly believe that the T-34 tanks, IL-2 aircraft, BM-13 (Katyusha) rocket artillery fighting vehicles and many other models of Soviet military equipment were second to none.
The supply of industrial goods amounted in size to 4% of total production in the USSR during the war, and according to some Western data, from 7 to 11% [11].

As for food supplies, the average annual export to the Soviet Union of grain, flour and cereal from the USA and Canada (in terms of grain) during the war years amounted to 2.8% of the average annual grain procurements in the USSR.

At the decisive moment of the battle of Stalingrad, Lend-Lease deliveries were practically stopped.
]Lend-lease deliveries were not great in the most difficult time - in 1941–1942.Until the end of 1941, under the Lend-Lease USA and England transferred 750 planes to the USSR (including 5 bombers), 501 tanks and 8 anti-aircraft guns, which, of course, was a good help, especially to the small tank fleet of the Red Army [12]. But nevertheless, these deliveries could not have a noticeable effect on the course and especially the outcome of the battle of Moscow, as well as on the course of the battles on the Soviet-German front as a whole. Former US President G. Hoover, who cannot be suspected of sympathizing with the USSR, admits that the Soviet army stopped the Germans even before the lend-lease reached her [13].

The volume of deliveries to the Soviet Union in 1942 was also small. At the decisive moment of the battle of Stalingrad, supplies were virtually halted. On July 18, 1942, after the unsuccessful posting of the PQ-17 convoy at the beginning of July, Churchill informed the Soviet government that he had stopped sending convoys by the Northern Sea Route, which delivered most of the cargo from abroad to the Soviet Union. The bulk of the armament and other materials was received by the USSR in 1944-1945, when as a result of the defeat of the fascist forces on the Soviet-German front, a radical turning point occurred during the Great Patriotic War and the entire Second World War.

This is recognized by many Western researchers. J. Harring, author of The Aid of Russia in 1941-1945, testifies to the fact that “supplies of equipment and gear to the Soviet Union ... in reality, they represented only a small percentage of Russian production” [14].

 

[tank]

That Stalin was demanding a second front just points to the fact that Russia couldn't do it by themselves, which you haven't refuted, because you can't.

I could find no source for your Churchill quote. Please provide one. The Allies were not in a position to initiate a second front in Western Europe in 1942. Britain certainly couldn't and the US had just gotten into the war, facts you conveniently forget to mention.

Do us a big favor, give us books or sites that are objective and sites that are in English. Otherwise, don't bother posting Stalinist propaganda.

If you believe that everything I posted is Stalinist propaganda could you please disprove it with the facts
So far you provided your words only.

Kind Regards.
Serge.

 

[jazzeum]

If you believe that everything I posted is Stalinist propaganda could you please disprove it with the facts
So far you provided your words only.

Kind Regards.
Serge.

We are still awaiting some facts from you, instead of what we get.

 

[Rutledge]

One of the biggest myth is that only because of Lend-Lease Russia wasn’t defeated by Gemany.
Please trust the facts, not the propaganga.

In the publications of Russian authors, it was emphasized that the military-industrial, raw-material and food assistance provided by the USA and England, carried out in accordance with the Lend-Lease Act (officially called the “US Defense Assistance Act”), undoubtedly contributed to the strengthening of the combat power of the USSR. Soviet people expressed their gratitude to the American and English peoples who helped the Red Army to smash the Wehrmacht divisions. The Soviet press and the writings of historians emphasized that the help of the Allies with weapons and various materials played a positive, but insignificant role in the struggle of the Soviet state against fascist aggression. Such an assessment was substantiated by comparative data on the ratio of Lend-Lease supplies to domestic industry and agricultural products; military equipment received from the USA, England and Canada and produced in the USSR during the Great Patriotic War.

Of particular importance to the USSR were the supplies by the Allies of military equipment and weapons, which in large quantities were required by the front. During the war years from the USA (until September 20, 1945), guns of various calibres — 7509, aircraft — 14,450 arrived in the USSR under Lend-Lease (there are other data that do not change the order of the ratio of military equipment and weapons received and produced in the USSR), tanks and self-propelled artillery mounts - 6903 [9].

According to Soviet historians, US supplies amounted to: 1.6% for artillery, 12.5% ​​for aviation, 6.7% for tanks and self-propelled guns relative to those produced in the USSR
From June 1941 to August 1945, the Soviet Union produced 112.1 thousand combat aircraft, 102.8 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns, 482.2 thousand artillery pieces, 351.8 thousand mortars. Thus, American deliveries amounted to 1.6% for artillery, 12.5% ​​for aviation, and 6.7% for tanks and self-propelled guns relative to what was produced in the Soviet Union.

As for other types of weapons, as well as ammunition, their specific gravity was even less and amounted, for example, to machine guns only 1.7%, to pistols - 0.8%, to shells - 0.6% and mortars - 0.1 % of the level of production in the USSR.

Of great value to the Red Army were deliveries from the USA of cars - 427 thousand units. Of the total number of vehicles in the Armed Forces, they amounted to 5.4% in January 1943, 19% in January 1944, and more than 30% in January 1945 [10].

US President Franklin D. Roosevelt signs Lend-Lease Act
The logical conclusion is drawn from this: not the help of the allies played a decisive role in providing the Red Army with weapons and military equipment. On the military weapons, which the people supplied their army, stood the Soviet mark. Domestic researchers rightly believe that the T-34 tanks, IL-2 aircraft, BM-13 (Katyusha) rocket artillery fighting vehicles and many other models of Soviet military equipment were second to none.
The supply of industrial goods amounted in size to 4% of total production in the USSR during the war, and according to some Western data, from 7 to 11% [11].

As for food supplies, the average annual export to the Soviet Union of grain, flour and cereal from the USA and Canada (in terms of grain) during the war years amounted to 2.8% of the average annual grain procurements in the USSR.

At the decisive moment of the battle of Stalingrad, Lend-Lease deliveries were practically stopped.
]Lend-lease deliveries were not great in the most difficult time - in 1941–1942.Until the end of 1941, under the Lend-Lease USA and England transferred 750 planes to the USSR (including 5 bombers), 501 tanks and 8 anti-aircraft guns, which, of course, was a good help, especially to the small tank fleet of the Red Army [12]. But nevertheless, these deliveries could not have a noticeable effect on the course and especially the outcome of the battle of Moscow, as well as on the course of the battles on the Soviet-German front as a whole. Former US President G. Hoover, who cannot be suspected of sympathizing with the USSR, admits that the Soviet army stopped the Germans even before the lend-lease reached her [13].

The volume of deliveries to the Soviet Union in 1942 was also small. At the decisive moment of the battle of Stalingrad, supplies were virtually halted. On July 18, 1942, after the unsuccessful posting of the PQ-17 convoy at the beginning of July, Churchill informed the Soviet government that he had stopped sending convoys by the Northern Sea Route, which delivered most of the cargo from abroad to the Soviet Union. The bulk of the armament and other materials was received by the USSR in 1944-1945, when as a result of the defeat of the fascist forces on the Soviet-German front, a radical turning point occurred during the Great Patriotic War and the entire Second World War.

This is recognized by many Western researchers. J. Harring, author of The Aid of Russia in 1941-1945, testifies to the fact that “supplies of equipment and gear to the Soviet Union ... in reality, they represented only a small percentage of Russian production” [14].

https://pravoslavie.ru/79771.html

Russian online thuggery at it again. No wonder the majority of the developed world despise Russia for what it is: an enemy of western civilization, ruled by ruthless, criminal autocrats like the vile Vlad Putin. Fortunately Russia has a puny economy and corrupt government. The regular people have been repressed so long they don’t know any other way. But just like the USSR before it, Russia is built on a house of sand, and will surely collapse of its own weight - again.

 

[tank]

We are still awaiting some facts from you, instead of what we get.

Please enjoy


British historian Professor Geoffrey Roberts.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2xW6veHY9U&frags=pl,wn

 

[tank]

Russian online thuggery at it again. No wonder the majority of the developed world despise Russia for what it is: an enemy of western civilization, ruled by ruthless, criminal autocrats like the vile Vlad Putin. Fortunately Russia has a puny economy and corrupt government. The regular people have been repressed so long they don’t know any other way. But just like the USSR before it, Russia is built on a house of sand, and will surely collapse of its own weight - again.

WOW! I haven’t seen so much propaganga for a long time.

Dear friend.

Have you notised that in this discussion I’m the only one who provided some facts and on the other side you blaming me without providing any facts.
If you wish to participate in discussion please refrain from propaganda and please provide some facts instead.
If you don’t have anything to say about the Operation “Overlord” please stay away from discussion.

Sometimes in discussion when a person doesn’t know what to replay the person became an angry and rude.

Please note: I wasn’t rude to anyone unlike you.
So who is the online thuggery?

 

[jazzeum]

Please enjoy


British historian Professor Geoffrey Roberts.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m2xW6veHY9U&frags=pl,wn

Unfortunately (for you), not a credible source. He’s been accused of being pro Russian. Next!

 

[tank]

Unfortunately (for you), not a credible source. He’s been accused of being pro Russian. Next!

“He’s been accused of being pro Russian” - was he accused by who?
I really would like to know. Please let everyone know who is it.

Now it is your turn to provide the real evidence about the Second Front.
Please don’t let us wait for long.

Kind Regards.
Serge.

 

[jazzeum]

Sorry, but I’m not here to submit to your questions or be interrogated. Figure it out yourself.

 

[tank]

Sorry, but I’m not here to submit to your questions or be interrogated. Figure it out yourself.

I request you,jazzeum to stay away from this discussion as you reveal yourself as internet troll.
Please have respect to participants of this dicussion and please do not post anything.

Thanks.
Serge.

 

[jazzeum]

I request you,jazzeum to stay away from this discussion as you reveal yourself as internet troll.
Please have respect to participants of this dicussion and please do not post anything.

Thanks.
Serge.

That is the funniest thing I’ve read in awhile. Enjoy talking to yourself ^&grin

 

[tank]

Excellent post Brad.
My understanding is the USA provided Russia with north of 17 million tons of materiel between 1941 and 1945.
I doubt the Russians could have won without help from the allies in material in the same way the allies would have found it near impossible to invade Europe had there not been a eastern front.

One of the biggest myth is that only because of Lend-Lease Russia wasn’t defeated by Gemany.
Please trust the facts, not the propaganga.

In the publications of Russian authors, it was emphasized that the military-industrial, raw-material and food assistance provided by the USA and England, carried out in accordance with the Lend-Lease Act (officially called the “US Defense Assistance Act”), undoubtedly contributed to the strengthening of the combat power of the USSR. Soviet people expressed their gratitude to the American and English peoples who helped the Red Army to smash the Wehrmacht divisions. The Soviet press and the writings of historians emphasized that the help of the Allies with weapons and various materials played a positive, but insignificant role in the struggle of the Soviet state against fascist aggression. Such an assessment was substantiated by comparative data on the ratio of Lend-Lease supplies to domestic industry and agricultural products; military equipment received from the USA, England and Canada and produced in the USSR during the Great Patriotic War.

Of particular importance to the USSR were the supplies by the Allies of military equipment and weapons, which in large quantities were required by the front. During the war years from the USA (until September 20, 1945), guns of various calibres — 7509, aircraft — 14,450 arrived in the USSR under Lend-Lease (there are other data that do not change the order of the ratio of military equipment and weapons received and produced in the USSR), tanks and self-propelled artillery mounts - 6903 [9].

[]According to Soviet historians, US supplies amounted to: 1.6% for artillery, 12.5% ​​for aviation, 6.7% for tanks and self-propelled guns relative to those produced in the USSR
From June 1941 to August 1945, the Soviet Union produced 112.1 thousand combat aircraft, 102.8 thousand tanks and self-propelled guns, 482.2 thousand artillery pieces, 351.8 thousand mortars. Thus, American deliveries amounted to 1.6% for artillery, 12.5% ​​for aviation, and 6.7% for tanks and self-propelled guns relative to what was produced in the Soviet Union.

As for other types of weapons, as well as ammunition, their specific gravity was even less and amounted, for example, to machine guns only 1.7%, to pistols - 0.8%, to shells - 0.6% and mortars - 0.1 % of the level of production in the USSR.

Of great value to the Red Army were deliveries from the USA of cars - 427 thousand units. Of the total number of vehicles in the Armed Forces, they amounted to 5.4% in January 1943, 19% in January 1944, and more than 30% in January 1945 [10].

US President Franklin D. Roosevelt signs Lend-Lease Act
The logical conclusion is drawn from this: not the help of the allies played a decisive role in providing the Red Army with weapons and military equipment. On the military weapons, which the people supplied their army, stood the Soviet mark. Domestic researchers rightly believe that the T-34 tanks, IL-2 aircraft, BM-13 (Katyusha) rocket artillery fighting vehicles and many other models of Soviet military equipment were second to none.
The supply of industrial goods amounted in size to 4% of total production in the USSR during the war, and according to some Western data, from 7 to 11% [11].

As for food supplies, the average annual export to the Soviet Union of grain, flour and cereal from the USA and Canada (in terms of grain) during the war years amounted to 2.8% of the average annual grain procurements in the USSR.

At the decisive moment of the battle of Stalingrad, Lend-Lease deliveries were practically stopped.
]Lend-lease deliveries were not great in the most difficult time - in 1941–1942.Until the end of 1941, under the Lend-Lease USA and England transferred 750 planes to the USSR (including 5 bombers), 501 tanks and 8 anti-aircraft guns, which, of course, was a good help, especially to the small tank fleet of the Red Army [12]. But nevertheless, these deliveries could not have a noticeable effect on the course and especially the outcome of the battle of Moscow, as well as on the course of the battles on the Soviet-German front as a whole. Former US President G. Hoover, who cannot be suspected of sympathizing with the USSR, admits that the Soviet army stopped the Germans even before the lend-lease reached her [13].

The volume of deliveries to the Soviet Union in 1942 was also small. At the decisive moment of the battle of Stalingrad, supplies were virtually halted. On July 18, 1942, after the unsuccessful posting of the PQ-17 convoy at the beginning of July, Churchill informed the Soviet government that he had stopped sending convoys by the Northern Sea Route, which delivered most of the cargo from abroad to the Soviet Union. The bulk of the armament and other materials was received by the USSR in 1944-1945, when as a result of the defeat of the fascist forces on the Soviet-German front, a radical turning point occurred during the Great Patriotic War and the entire Second World War.

This is recognized by many Western researchers. J. Harring, author of The Aid of Russia in 1941-1945, testifies to the fact that “supplies of equipment and gear to the Soviet Union ... in reality, they represented only a small percentage of Russian production” [14].

 

[tank]

Not worth a reply. :rolleyes2:

Hi there.

Sorry don’t know your name.

Heinrich Severloh was a soldier in the German 352nd Infantry Division stationed in Normandy in 1944 defending the Omaha Beach.
Please read what this guy did during the landing on the beach.

Now, please, can you imagine what a few thousands of mashine gunners could do against advancing Russian soldiers in the open Russian and Polish plains.

It was really childish to say:

Quote Originally Posted by Terp152 View Post
The Bocage country was more difficult than the open Russian and Polish plains. The western allied air offensive diverted crucial German resources. Imagine all the AA guns being used to defend against the Russian armor units instead of air defense. Or being used to create more armor to oppose the Russians. Chris

Kind Regards.
Serge.

Here is some info about the soldiers of the German 352nd Infantry Division.

The 352nd when formed was a mix of experienced soldiers drawn from worn out or disbanded divisions serving on the Eastern front, German 17 year old conscripts and a significant number of Ost volunteers, the latter mainly employed in Divisional support roles. Throughout the training period there were shortages of both men, equipment and fuel and by early 1944 the Division though reasonably equipped, was far from properly prepared for front line infantry combat.

 

[tank]

I say that you haven't refuted my statement that most of the people who believe the Soviet Union could have defeated Germany alone are probably Russian.

Hi Brad.
Obviously you are right by saying that there are a lot of Russian people who believe the Soviet Union could have defeated Germany alone.
In my reply to you I was trying to say that russians are not alone who believe in that.

Kind Regards.
Serge.

 

[Rutledge]

WOW! I haven’t seen so much propaganga for a long time.

Dear friend.

Have you notised that in this discussion I’m the only one who provided some facts and on the other side you blaming me without providing any facts.
If you wish to participate in discussion please refrain from propaganda and please provide some facts instead.
If you don’t have anything to say about the Operation “Overlord” please stay away from discussion.

Sometimes in discussion when a person doesn’t know what to replay the person became an angry and rude.

Please note: I wasn’t rude to anyone unlike you.
So who is the online thuggery?

Propaganda eh? Did the USSR NOT collapse? Did the Russian military not flee Afghanistan after years of fruitless occupation? Is the Russian economy NOT puny compared to developed countries like the USA? Please tell me why any of these truths are “propaganda”? Lol

The good news is for Russia next time it is in an existential fight for its life, we won’t “help” you one bit, and so you’ll get to prove what tough hombres you are. The bad news is, it may be the USA with whom you are at war! Oops! Haha
Good luck!
PS: Hope no more of your nuclear reactors go bad!