Panther CS and Panther K&C (2 Viewers)

[daruss]

Just wondering if anyone out there has a CS Panther and the K&C Panther,, wondering if they look good together
Thanks

 

[Deitz]

I have a Normandy Panther from CS and K&C. The CS tank is slightly larger than KC tank. I like the slightly larger size, color and the optional destroyed track on the CS tank, but I like the extras on the KC tank like the track on the front of the Panther and the extra wheels on the tank. Both of KC and CS Panthers are excellent tanks. Although there is a slight size difference, they would go fine in a diorama together.

I really can't choose which I like better, they are both great tanks.

 

[daruss]

Thanks for the info! Since the K&C is smaller, its probably better to put it in the background of the diorama.. I have heard from some people that many K&C vehicles are a little smaller than 1/30 scale. But i don't want to start that whole debate again! The CS panthers would also look good on the later war eastern front (poland)

 

[lancer]

Interesting that the KC Panther is smaller than the CS one. I have the KC Panther and 2 HB Panthers and they are all the same size. Is KC and HB correct and CS oversize or are KC and HB undersized and CS correct? Oh no, could this be Scale Wars Part 93? They all look good to me. -- lancer

 

[kilted vampire]

I agree both are great tanks and the two of them would fit on a large dio. No reason not to have a absteilung with both.

 

[fmethorst]

Interesting that the KC Panther is smaller than the CS one. I have the KC Panther and 2 HB Panthers and they are all the same size. Is KC and HB correct and CS oversize or are KC and HB undersized and CS correct? Oh no, could this be Scale Wars Part 93? They all look good to me. -- lancer

Specifications near the bottom of this page:

http://www.panzerworld.net/panther

 

[Phantom Warrior]

From the previous photos, the CS Panther is definitely a little longer (not counting the main gun) and wider, even though the CS Panther has no Schurzen, so it should be a bit narrower than the K&C Panther. The CS Panther has noticeably less ground clearance than the K&C version. The HB Panther is about the same width as the K&C model going only out to the mud guards, but is a bit longer.


At 1/30 scale, the K&C Panther should be 22.9 cm long (22.7 cm measured), 11.4 cm wide with schurzen (11.4 cm measured, and 10.33 cm high (10.4 cm measured).

All 3 models are pretty close to 1/30. You could argue from the photos that the CS Panther is a little more than 1/30 and the K&C model a tiny bit less. The HB Panther looks like it would be a bit narrower than the CS Panther but about the same length. Really, all 3 are very close and impossible to say which is more hair splitting accurate.

Terry

 

[redhugh]

they do look well together

 

[The Collectors Showcase]

From the previous photos, the CS Panther is definitely a little longer (not counting the main gun) and wider, even though the CS Panther has no Schurzen, so it should be a bit narrower than the K&C Panther. The CS Panther has noticeably less ground clearance than the K&C version. The HB Panther is about the same width as the K&C model going only out to the mud guards, but is a bit longer.


At 1/30 scale, the K&C Panther should be 22.9 cm long (22.7 cm measured), 11.4 cm wide with schurzen (11.4 cm measured, and 10.33 cm high (10.4 cm measured).

All 3 models are pretty close to 1/30. You could argue from the photos that the CS Panther is a little more than 1/30 and the K&C model a tiny bit less. The HB Panther looks like it would be a bit narrower than the CS Panther but about the same length. Really, all 3 are very close and impossible to say which is more hair splitting accurate.

Terry

We've spoken about this before so let me weigh in one more time. We have brought a variety of KC pieces in to our production facility and find the scales for figures change quite a bit in the WWII genre. They run the gamut from about 1/33rd all the way to about 1/28th scale.

Vehicles are always a bit small, not too far from 1/35th scale in some cases. But all of this is quite understandable. KC figures and vehicles are mostly sculpted by hand, so the ability to get large variation in scales is not to be faulted. Also we believe the results are quite nice and really the sets are quite cohesive in regards to the figures placing well with the armor. Paint considerations are consistantly bright and quite appealing to a large body of collectors. So Andy truly has done an excellent job of providing the collector with a large body of products that often go well togethor.

That being said: At CS we're more interested in the next "gen" toy soldiers or rather military miniatures. Its a sort of whats next? We believe its gritty realism, so we are going in that direction. Make no mistake our vehicles are a true 1/30th scale and our figures are now a true 1/30th ( they were too large and have been progressively made smaller and to the right scale as we've moved forward ). We use CAD programs that allow us to compare scales all the time so we get computer aided accuracy. Simply put: our figures fit our tanks.

It should be known if you happen to grab a KC figure that is more 1/32nd in scale and not one that is more 1/29th your figures will look too small for our armor. However if you take our recent WWII figure like Joachim Pfeiffer that is a crisp 1/30th scale and place it next to the Panther, they'll fit like a glove. And yes the idea is to have you purchase some of our figures to place in scenes next to our vehicles. After all KC and CS are ultimately competitors. That doesn't mean we don't absolutely admire what Andy has done for the hobby, we do. But we feel we can offer a more animated, highly detailed product, thats why we do what we do.

2010 will mark a big growth in new product introductions. You'll see greater frequency of releases and for the first time a real focus on WWII figure sets and armor. We believe we've got the best products out there, and our goal is to make other folks feel the same. But it happens only through hard work, dedication and a vision for whats coming next. You guys are the best and its an honor to collaborate with each and every collector, after all, at the end of the day we're creating products togethor.

Hope that helps.

Happy Holidays,

Brian

 

[daruss]

Happy Thanksgiving Bri! I really didnt want to bring up the scale issue, but i had too.. Though i still think every should make 1/32 scale.. I know that you make a winter panther, were they used in the BATTLE OF THE BULGE?
Thanks

 

[fmethorst]

Happy Thanksgiving Bri! I really didnt want to bring up the scale issue, but i had too.. Though i still think every should make 1/32 scale.. I know that you make a winter panther, were they used in the BATTLE OF THE BULGE?
Thanks

Are you asking if Panthers were used in the Battle of the Bulge or if whitewashed Panthers were used?

 

[daruss]

Both

 

[Gustavflyer]

Both

Nearly all the Panthers used in the Bulge were Ausf. G vehicles, many were of course newly produced tanks from the October and November production runs. In all the photos of Panthers in The Bulge that I have seen, none had zimmerit and I havent seen any snow camo Panthers either. Check out the book Sherman vs. Panther from Osprey's Duel series and it will give more info on the Panther variant used in the Bulge....

 

[tullock]

Nearly all the Panthers used in the Bulge were Ausf. G vehicles, many were of course newly produced tanks from the October and November production runs. In all the photos of Panthers in The Bulge that I have seen, none had zimmerit and I havent seen any snow camo Panthers either. Check out the book Sherman vs. Panther from Osprey's Duel series and it will give more info on the Panther variant used in the Bulge....

None of the panthers involved in the initial assaults in the Ardennes had white camo and it is very doubtful if any of the later ones did .Some of Peiper's panthers had zimmerit on their turrets only.(The Daimler-Benz diagonal type).An excellent source on this subject is 'Duel in the Mist'
Jeff

 

[jbonzo1]

I recall a photo of a snow camo'd Panther in the BOB in the "Panther in action" book from Squadron Signals. Am I wrong?

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Nearly all the Panthers used in the Bulge were Ausf. G vehicles, many were of course newly produced tanks from the October and November production runs. In all the photos of Panthers in The Bulge that I have seen, none had zimmerit and I havent seen any snow camo Panthers either. Check out the book Sherman vs. Panther from Osprey's Duel series and it will give more info on the Panther variant used in the Bulge....

Zimmerit stopped being applied to tanks at the beginning of September 1944. As Gustavflyer says, nearly all of the Panthers at the Bulge were from the Sept-Oct-Nov-Dec production runs and would not have had zimmerit. The Battle of the Bulge commenced on December 16, 1944 which coincided with the first of the snowstorms. Up to then, the tanks had 2 or 3 colour and ambush camo and once the attack started, there was no time to apply whitewash. And they certainly were not whitewashed before it snowed - the Germans were trying to keep their buildup secret and didn't want hundreds of whitewashed tanks sitting in Autumn forests.

The German strategy relied on foggy weather to keep the US aircraft grounded. They were not looking for snow to make the narrow, twisty and hilly roads in the Ardennes difficult to drive tanks through. Of the Panther tanks at the Bulge, very few (older) Panthers would have had zimmerit and it is unlikely any had been whitewashed.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I recall a photo of a snow camo'd Panther in the BOB in the "Panther in action" book from Squadron Signals. Am I wrong?

Who knows. It's hard to tell if a tank in some of the old photos was whitewashed or the photo was overexposed. And who knows if the Panther photo was actually taken at the Bulge. It is also possible that whitewash was applied to some tanks late in the battle.

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

I have only ever seen one picture of a whitewashed Panther captioned as being in the Ardennes. It's an Ausf.A and no unit identification is provided so I'm a little skeptical.

Certainly pictures of Panther wrecks after the battle that I have seen don't have whitewash.

 

[spartan71]

So there was no white washed german tanks at the bulge??, For what I am reading it was improbable before it started, because They did not want to alert the allied forces, with the build up. And when it was happening, there was no time, to do it. But if that is true to the panther, then the panzer IV, The Tigers, etc. could have not been white washed either for the same reasons, Am I right?. Or are we missing something here.

 

[maddadicus]

It would be nice if we could just enjoy an offered model as a stand alone piece in the flotsam and jetsum of a war ,several years in the making and ending of it. It is nice to note the historical content of a particular paint scheme or other detail but it does seem to me ,that some collectors actually regret a purchase, postpone a purchase or never purchase some great offerings from any number of mfgs. out there, just because a historically more knowledgeable forum member might point out, that your favorite last buy " never existed, never belonged, or should not ever be in your display case, never mind any diorama". Thank goodness, I collect vehicles because of their pretty colors, fantasy camo schemes and improbability of existing in any war theater of my choosing. When my plastic Marx marines were battling it out with my D Day plastic Germans, it seemed OK then and it should be OK now.. mICHAEL