Panther CS and Panther K&C (1 Viewer)

maddadicus said:
It would be nice if we could just enjoy an offered model as a stand alone piece in the flotsam and jetsum of a war ,several years in the making and ending of it. It is nice to note the historical content of a particular paint scheme or other detail but it does seem to me ,that some collectors actually regret a purchase, postpone a purchase or never purchase some great offerings from any number of mfgs. out there, just because a historically more knowledgeable forum member might point out, that your favorite last buy " never existed, never belonged, or should not ever be in your display case, never mind any diorama". :eek: Thank goodness, I collect vehicles because of their pretty colors, fantasy camo schemes and improbability of existing in any war theater of my choosing. When my plastic Marx marines were battling it out with my D Day plastic Germans, it seemed OK then and it should be OK now..:D mICHAEL
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Collectors have different degrees of demand for authenticity. Some just want an AFV that looks good and some would like historical accuracy down to the unit insignia and vehicle numbers. A high level of historical accuracy can limit the use of a piece in a diorama. And all of the manufacturers take artistic liberties with their AFVs, or occasionally just plain get it wrong. Whitewashed Panthers with zimerit did exist on the eastern front but not at the Battle of the Bulge. Just because a manufacturer says his model is from a particular battle, doesn't mean it can't be used somewhere else. Or buy the Panther with no zimerit and no whitewash to more accurately depict a Panther at the Bulge. There are many ways to go.

For me, it's only a problem if an AFV is depicted which never existed i.e. a grey Panther in 1940 France.

Terry
 
maddadicus said:
When my plastic Marx marines were battling it out with my D Day plastic Germans, it seemed OK then and it should be OK now..:D mICHAEL
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I am just reading a new book on D-Day, and I could have sworn I read something about plastic German units, but I do not believe there were any American units of that nature. I hear they really dreaded flame throwers.:)
 
spartan71 said:
So there was no white washed german tanks at the bulge??, For what I am reading it was improbable before it started, because They did not want to alert the allied forces, with the build up. And when it was happening, there was no time, to do it. But if that is true to the panther, then the panzer IV, The Tigers, etc. could have not been white washed either for the same reasons, Am I right?. Or are we missing something here.
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Hitler chose the day of the attack based on weather reports from u-boats in the Atlantic. He timed it so an Atlantic storm on December 13th would reach the Ardennes by the 16th and provide dense cloud cover to ground the allies aircraft and fog and drizzel to mask the movement of the armour and infantry. Some of the German troops were equipped with winter camo clothing, but I doubt if any of the AFVs were whitewashed at the start of the battle. No one expected that within a few days the area would suffer the coldest winter and largest snowstorms for 30 years. The overwhelming number of Bulge photos I have seen show unwhitewashed German AFVs.

Terry
 
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spartan71 said:
So there was no white washed german tanks at the bulge??, For what I am reading it was improbable before it started, because They did not want to alert the allied forces, with the build up. And when it was happening, there was no time, to do it. But if that is true to the panther, then the panzer IV, The Tigers, etc. could have not been white washed either for the same reasons, Am I right?. Or are we missing something here.
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I have seen one picture of a Tiger I attached to Panzer-Abteilung (Fkl) 301 that is inconclusive but aside from that I haven't seen any.
 
And once the attack started, I'm sure they had no time to whitewash AFVs other than reserves, if that.

Funny how the Battle of the Bulge, a winter battle was fought by German AFVs in 3 colour camo - no whitewash. History bites again. :)

Terry
 
maddadicus said:
It would be nice if we could just enjoy an offered model as a stand alone piece in the flotsam and jetsum of a war ,several years in the making and ending of it. It is nice to note the historical content of a particular paint scheme or other detail but it does seem to me ,that some collectors actually regret a purchase, postpone a purchase or never purchase some great offerings from any number of mfgs. out there, just because a historically more knowledgeable forum member might point out, that your favorite last buy " never existed, never belonged, or should not ever be in your display case, never mind any diorama". :eek: Thank goodness, I collect vehicles because of their pretty colors, fantasy camo schemes and improbability of existing in any war theater of my choosing. When my plastic Marx marines were battling it out with my D Day plastic Germans, it seemed OK then and it should be OK now..:D mICHAEL
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In this case no one began discussing the subject until the question was asked.

It is never my intent to influence anyone to regret or avoid purchasing a piece due to historical inaccuracies. I am simply passionate about this period of history and enjoy discussing it. This forum provides a medium to facilitate that discussion.

If I understand what you are saying correctly your argument is that for some members of the forum to enjoy the hobby it requires a certain degree of ignorance due to inate inaccuracies present in the products produced by the various manufacturers. If that is true then it is unfortunate.

I have a totally inaccurate Bulge diorama that I enjoy immensely. In this case I simply choose to ignore the evidence and put together something that looks good.
 
fmethorst said:
In this case no one began discussing the subject until the question was asked.

It is never my intent to influence anyone to regret or avoid purchasing a piece due to historical inaccuracies. I am simply passionate about this period of history and enjoy discussing it. This forum provides a medium to facilitate that discussion.

If I understand what you are saying correctly your argument is that for some members of the forum to enjoy the hobby it requires a certain degree of ignorance due to inate inaccuracies present in the products produced by the various manufacturers. If that is true then it is unfortunate.

I have a totally inaccurate Bulge diorama that I enjoy immensely. In this case I simply choose to ignore the evidence and put together something that looks good.
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I confess to having whitewashed German AFV's in my Bulge scene. :eek::eek::D

In fact, the K&C winter Hummel with no whitewash but with the figures in white winter camo, is the only historically accurate model I can think of. Others have the correct vehicle camo (no whitewash) but the figures do not have winter clothing, or the figures have winter clothing, but the AFV is whitewashed.

Terry
 
Even thought most of the german troops were well equipped for the battle of the bulge, i think its safe to say, in the late stage of the war, some of the troops just had to do with what they had.. you will probably find everything was a "mixed bag" at that point..
 
Phantom Warrior said:
I confess to having whitewashed German AFV's in my Bulge scene. :eek::eek::D

In fact, the K&C winter Hummel with no whitewash but with the figures in white winter camo, is the only historically accurate model I can think of. Others have the correct vehicle camo (no whitewash) but the figures do not have winter clothing, or the figures have winter clothing, but the AFV is whitewashed.

Terry
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daruss said:
Even thought most of the german troops were well equipped for the battle of the bulge, i think its safe to say, in the late stage of the war, some of the troops just had to do with what they had.. you will probably find everything was a "mixed bag" at that point..
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I forgot about BBG016 correctly shows a Battle of the bulge King Tiger http://www.toysoldiersusa.com/cgi-local/show_detail.cgi?item_id=BBG016 and BBG017 correctly shows tank riders for the Bulge. http://www.toysoldiersusa.com/cgi-local/show_detail.cgi?item_id=BBG017


Terry
 
That "ambush" scheme was also used in the late stages of the eastern from... I have a new book showing some hetzers and tigers with the ambush pattern in poland/eastern part of germany 44/45
 
Would this King work for the BOB?
 

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jbonzo1 said:
Would this King work for the BOB?
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An August 1944 order directed that an ambush pattern of dark yellow, olive green and red brown with small contrasting dots of the same colors applied over the background patches be applied at the factory. The 45 King Tigers of SS-Pz.Abt. 501 which were at the Battle of the Bulge were all produced from September - December 1944 at the Henschel factory including 11 originally sent to Pz.Abt. 509. Zimmerit had stopped being applied in September 1944 and none of the King Tigers had zimmerit.

The King Tiger WS071 in your photo has a late war (1945) 2 colour camo sometimes called an urban camoflauge scheme more suitable to the fall of Berlin.

Terry
 
In addition to what Terry said the Tiger II in the picture has a Porsche-turm (Porsche turret) which appeared on early Tiger IIs. The majority (if not all) of those involved in the Battle of the Bulge had the Serien-turm (Series turret aka. Henschel turret).
 
Phantom Warrior said:
The best example of a King Tiger for the Battle of the Bulge is BBG016

http://www.toysoldiersusa.com/cgi-local/show_detail.cgi?item_id=BBG016

It has the correct ambush camo, Henschel turret, no zimmerit and with BBG017 winter tank riders looks correct.

http://www.toysoldiersusa.com/cgi-local/show_detail.cgi?item_id=BBG017

Terry
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I would have preferred the tank riders to have no winter camo.Peiper's grenadiers were not issued white clothing.Nice figures though and superb Tiger!
Jeff
 
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