Photos of Third Riech Land-Marks and Events, Then and Now (1 Viewer)

[sceic2]

When I saw Combat’s post (the first post on the “Eastern Front” thread in the K&C Forum category), I recognized the Berlin Flack Towers from his wish list as something from my past.

I was on a bus tour of Southern Germany and Austria. My ship was on a Northern European deployment as part of the "Standing Force NATO". Standing Force NATO is squadron of six destroyer types whose primary mission is to tour the world, show the solidarity of NATO, and practice war games among the various nations. We had German, Norwegian, Dutch, US, Italian, and British ships lead by a German Rear Admiral. When we would have a port visit, the US Embassy or some State Department Representative would arrange with the Ship’s Moral Officer day or overnight tours of various sites of interest. Most of the cost of the tour was paid by the ship’s “welfare and recreation fund.” I always took the tours.

My point is that if you follow this link, http://www.thirdreichruins.com/vienna.htm and page down, you will see a link to the Vienna Flak Towers and a link to the Berlin Flak Towers. I saw these monsters in Vienna and if one were to be offered in 1/30 scale, the buyer had better put on an addition to the house or get a bigger apartment.

If you click on the “Home” link on this page, you will find a multitude of internal site links to some, as what Sergeant Klink would say, “very interesting” photos of then and now at various locations throughout the Third Reich.

 

[OzDigger]

Thanks for the link sceic2, it certainly has some great pics.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Really fascinating photos. I wonder what it must be like to stand at the balcony depicted in the photo where Hitler stood, to know that sixty years ago evil incarnate occupied the space you are in. Its chilling to think about.

By the way, those flak towers are huge! I bet Gordon Neilson from K&C could make a 1/30 scale model of one (about three feet tall) out of wood and papier mache, but you would need all the flak guns to man it, and that could run to some serious expense.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi All,

When I was stationed in Germany I also got to look at some great falk towers around the Mannheim area as well as further north in and around Koln I also was fortunate enough to be very close to the old Seigfried Line and took a look at this area as well at the old fortress just across the border in *****e France. There are a lot of old bunkers still around the country that are quite well made and in some cases very dangerous because of UXO we had some kids find an old potato masher thank god it didnt go off. During some renovations of the barracks buildings in Mannhein we also found some really great booby traps still in the walls that had to be delt with by the bomb squad they got them out and blew them in a safe place.

I also got to go into some recently uncovered bunkers/trench works at Verdun what I found really interesting was the state of preservation and of course all of the UXO laying around. I would not want to be digging a ditch over there or a garden in the wrong place it would really stink to find a bomb or grenade tha hard way.

There was a rumor that there were flodded bunkers and underground hangers under the airfield we had in Mannheim. I could not confirm those rumors but they make sense since the air field was a fighter base for the protection of the factories and railhubs in the area.

My only regret was I never had the foresight to have a camera with me when we stumbled into these site I do have some good pics from Verdun and a bunker or two but wish I had more.

Anyway, hope to hear some more stories about the bunkers etc over there.

Dave

 

[sceic2]

There are very vast and interesting bunkers right here in the US. The US Army's Coastal Artillery Command tried to make "Fortress America" before and after WWI. The Marin Headlands at the north end of the Golden Gate Bridge in San Francisco has many. Near the small Oahu town of Eva, on the western side of the entrance to Pearl Harbor has many. There are several around the Hampton Roads area and New York City.

I used to have great fun in exploring them. Most of them had large caliber guns (now missing) but smaller machine gun emplacements protected some. The famous (movies, TV, commericals) point overlooking the Golden Gate Bridge, where you look down on the bridge and see traffic flowing towards the city, has a small bunker that was supposed to have housed a machine gun. To get at the series between US 1 and the sea, take the first exit after crossing the bridge and go under the highway through a one-lane tunnel. This road will lead up and to the highest point where the majority of the "disappearing" gun houses are. There are many tunnels. I don't known if the complex is still accessible, the last time I was there was in the late 1970's. Perhaps Steven Chong would know. I think he is from the Bay area? Michael

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi All,

I've been to the ones at San Francisco they are really in good shape. We also had a Nike Hercules Missle detachment stationed there for a while during the Cold War.

If you ever get up to Alaska there are a lot of Coastal Artillery fortifications I was able to look at a series of bunkers etc on the island Metlakatla which is an Indian Reservation and not open to the public if you have a friend living there you can go over its right on the border with Canada on the panhandle.

But all in all if you really want to see some bunkers get to Germany and wander off the beaten path.

Dave

 

[Steven Chong]

... To get at the series between US 1 and the sea, take the first exit after crossing the bridge and go under the highway through a one-lane tunnel. This road will lead up and to the highest point where the majority of the "disappearing" gun houses are. There are many tunnels. I don't known if the complex is still accessible, the last time I was there was in the late 1970's. Perhaps Steven Chong would know. I think he is from the Bay area? Michael

Dear Michael,
Yes, I live in San Francisco. In the late 70's, my brother and I explored many of the "disappearing" gun emplacements on the San Francisco side of the Golden Gate bridge. I do not know if the fortifications in the Marin Headlands are still accessible -- many of the ones in San Francisco are now fenced off because of liability issues i.e. unsafe to the public.

 

[ucla1967]

In Honolulu, there is the Battery Randolph located at Fort DeRussy which is not far from the Hilton. It also has the U.S. Army Museum of Hawaii within. In Oregon, at Warrenton, on the mouth of the Columbia River, they also have a Coastal Artillery site worth visiting.

 

[OzDigger]

We even have a few bunkers etc Downunder, mostly around Sydney and Brisbane, and along the coast. Several date back to pre WWI times when some in Australia thought 'the Russians were coming' - but I guess they were preoccupied with things in Russia.

Btw I read somewhere that Hitler invaded Russia mainly because he believed Russia was going to invade Germany, and of course he wanted more oil. But I wonder how the war would have gone if Germany didn't invade Russia, maybe it would have dragged on for a while longer but I guess the result would have been the same.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Ozdigger, you should thank your lucky stars that Hitler was stupid enough to invade Russia. The Russians absorbed 75% of the German divisions, while the United States, Britain, the Commonwealth (including the fantastic ANZAC forces) and the Free French faced only 25% of the German forces. Without the Russians the Germans might very well have defeated the rest of us before the Manhattan Project could have ensured our victory.

 

[OzDigger]

Louis, I agree with what you say and being an avid military book collector (more money down the drain ) I'm certainly well aware of Russia's mighty contribution in the Eastern Theatre where Germany suffered about 85% of its war casualties.

 

[Louis Badolato]

I too am a fanatical collector of history books, but I have an unusual prediliction: I am most interested in hearing the first hand accounts of individuals who actually participated in making the history. Accordingly, my collection consists mostly of the published memoirs of enlisted men and lower ranking officers. Maybe I miss out on some of the strategy and grand tactics, but I prefer getting my history from the horses mouth. Among my favorite books are "Through Asia Minor on Horseback" by Frederick Burnaby; "A Zulu War Journal" by Colonel Henry Harford; "Long Range Desert Group" by W.B. Kennedy Shaw; "Company Commander" by Charles B. MacDonald; "Another River, Another Town: A Teenage Tank Gunner Comes of Age in Combat - 1945" by John P. Irwin; "Death Traps" by Belton Cooper; "Currahee!", "The Road to Arnhem", "Seven Roads to Hell" and "Beyond the Rhine" by Donald R. Burgett; and my all time favorite "Quartered Safe Out Here" by George MacDonald Fraser. I feel like I get alot more out of these accounts, often written contemporaneously with the action, then the conclusions of some "expert" (who probably never heard a shot fired in anger) about the events, written 50 or 100 years later. What are some of your favorite history books?

 

[OzDigger]

You're not unusual Louis, unless we both are I also collect WWII autobiographies as well as references and I'm lucky in that I can get first edition military bios in Australia for next to nothing - so far. I used to be able to buy hunting books (another passion) cheap down here as well but most sellers know what they have these days and charge accordingly. Btw I only collect hunting books based on 'man-eaters', such as those by Kenneth Anderson. Books about people shooting poor old elephants etc doesn't interest me much.

I concentrate on WWII auto-bios especially those by German authors. However I do buy some 'Allied' bios if they are of particular interest to me such as 'Flame Thrower' by Andrew Wilson who served in the flame throwing 'Crocodiles' (modified Churchill tanks with fuel trailers for those that aren't familiar with them). Aircraft and tanks are my main interest but I have a few infantry based books such as 'Forgotten Soldier' by Guy Sager and 'In Their Shallow Graves' by Benno Zieser.

Edit: My favourite history books?
References: I guess 'Warplanes of the Luftwaffe' by William Green is my fav, and I like the H & C series of books written by mainly French authors as they have some nice illustrations with some comprehensive written info. I'm not a big fan of the Schiffer range of military books as they are just basically photos with captions and they charge heaps for them, but their 'Camouflage Uniforms of the Waffen-SS' is well produced.

Third party history
I like 'The Luftwaffe Diaries' by Cajus Bekker and 'The Other Battle' by Peter Hinchliffe and the 'After the Battle' series.

First hand history
Usually the one I'm presently reading, lately the 'The Fatal Descision' being an examination of six decisive battles in WWII which is a combination of writtings by German officers close to each of the battles:
The Battle of Britain - General of the Air Force Werner Kreipe
Moscow - General Gunther Blumentritt
El Alamein - Lt-Col Fritz Bayerlein
Stalingrad - Col-Gen Kurt Zeitzler
France, 1944 - Lt-Col Bodo Zimmerman
The Ardennes - Gen Hasso Von Mateuffel

 

[sceic2]

Ozdigger, you should thank your lucky stars that Hitler was stupid enough to invade Russia. The Russians absorbed 75% of the German divisions, while the United States, Britain, the Commonwealth (including the fantastic ANZAC forces) and the Free French faced only 25% of the German forces. Without the Russians the Germans might very well have defeated the rest of us before the Manhattan Project could have ensured our victory.

Well what do ya know? For once I disagree with my friend Louis. It is not that I disagree with the premises that history would have been different, its just that to predict an outcome that was different than the one we actually experienced, with any amount of certainty that any outcomes would have been different, is not a prediction with any degree of confidence that it would have or have not happened. Too many variables are at play in the events of history. What were the chances that Stalin would have behaved in a predicable manner? What were the chances that Einstein may or may not have written to President Roosevelt urging him to begin development of, “a bomb of the greatest magnitude known to mankind.” There have been many proposals about the weapons the Nazi’ were developing that could have changed the war's final outcome, their version of an intercontinental bomber, additional guided missiles (they had already developed the first “smart bombs” using operator guidance by radio wave), the jet engine was in development, and on and on and on. But, they did not change the final results. Who is to say they even would have even if they had been fully developed, other than beating the US to the Atomic Age.

I think that making any predictions of the future is so impossible as to boggle the mind. Alternatives begat alternatives that begat alternatives. Now we can begin to discuss alternative universe theory that some cosmologists have proposed (in some other universe Hitler never existed, in another he won the war and ruled the world, in yet another Stalin won the cold war by advancing on the allies after the German surrender) but that theory is so complex that the human mind, except for a select few, can not even begin to understand it.

So endth the lesson for today, your homework assignment is to read Steven Hawking’ book, A Brief History of Time. Michael

 

[Louis Badolato]

Ozdigger,

I have read one of Fritz Bayerlin's books (I forget the title, and haven't had time to dig it out - Might have been "Panzer Commander"), and realy enjoyed it. I recall it was about his experiences from North Africa through the fall of Berlin.

Sciec2,

Certainly, it is impossible to predict the future, but I think that anyone could agree that absent the Russian forces, an Allied victory at the very least would have been less probable. I was merely trying to point out the extremely valuable contribution made by the Soviets to defeating Hitler. Didn't want to start a discussion of physics and time - I am not qualified to discuss these subjects!

 

[jazzeum]

Hawking is probably over my head but what is the premise of his book?

My theory about events in general has been always that events don't happen in a vaccum so you can't say that one scenario would happen if another didn't happen. To keep it simplistic, let's look at a baseball game. Let's say you have a runner at first who tries to steal and is thrown out. Then the next batter get up and is thrown out. Your first reaction is to say that if the runner doesn't try to steal, the team would have a run. However, the batter who got a double might have batted or tried to something differently had there been a runner on first. So you can't say that a certain result would have happened absent the existence of a set of circumstances that dictated a response to a pre-existing set of circumstances (e.g. the runner at first).

 

[Louis Badolato]

Yankees Commentator Michael Kaye refers to this as "the falacy of the predetermined outcome".

 

[jazzeum]

I'm not sure I'd want to be associated with anything that so called commentator had to say.

 

[DMNamiot]

Sounds like we have a Mets fan here!

Go Yankees!

 

[jazzeum]

Dave,

Don't get me started about the evil empire. At any rate, putting aside the merits of the teams, this guy is the biggest homer ever. A few years ago he and Keith Hernandez almost came to blows at MSG (a cable network here in the New York area). Seriously, the guy is not a good analyst and I'm not sure what he's doing as a commentator. He is the Yankees equivalent to the Mets Fran Healy. This year the Mets are going to their own network and they got rid of Healy. Thank God!