Pre K&C Streets of Hong Kong!! (1 Viewer)

[boerboy]

Interesting story. I own a few early K&C sets that look like very much as Trophy's...I wonder who predated who?
Al

 

[jazzeum]

It's a shame Andy doesn't write his history of K & C. He's got so many interesting stories.

 

[bromhead]

A great book,,heavily illustrated

 

[thebritfarmer]

It's a shame Andy doesn't write his history of K & C. He's got so many interesting stories.

Has anyone ever written their history of toy soldiers? Seems like they have all been written by other experts/collectors.

 

[jazzeum]

Aside from Louis' books, the answer is no.

 

[tdubel]

Hi Guys, hi Tom,

Re my friend Tom Dubel’s photos of the Chinese figures he posted yesterday.

Let me provide you with the actual background.

1. They are not “King White” figures and, most importantly, they do not pre date K&C’s “Streets of Old Hong Kong” series!
However there is a King White/ King & Country connection…

2. The guy who produced them was, at one time, the foreman of the King White factory here in HK up until the death of Mr. Cheung, the owner and operator of King White.

3. A couple of years after Mr. Cheung’s death, in the early 1990’s the former foreman approached K&C and offered to make figures on our behalf. He had set up his own small factory.

4. We decided to give him a trial with some of our earliest “Streets of Old Hong Kong” pieces. This he did and the results were “so-so”.
By this time K&C had already shifted its figure production from Hong Kong into Mainland China and, quite frankly, we could and did get better quality at a better price!

5. However, we persevered with the ex King White foreman and gave him a few orders over a period of about a year. To be honest, this guy’s quality was variable at best and he was not particularly reliable so it was perhaps not surprising that we parted ways.

6. Not long afterwards we started to see, in a few small gift shops around Hong Kong, our friend’s “own” version of our “Streets” figures. Most, if not all, of the figures shown in Tom’s photos were based on original K&C’s “Streets” series… The Man with the birdcage… The Fortune Teller… The Shoeshine Boy… and various rickshaws… even the little kids and the prisoner with his head in a wooden block!

7. The figures were not around very long and disappeared after a few months as did the ex foreman himself.

8. So, I can assure you King White were most definitely not the “Stylistic Godfather” of K&C and/or the progenitors of the “Chinese Style” of matt painting. In the 1980’s and perhaps before King White did produce in both gloss and matt styles. In all modesty the real beginning of the matt style of figure painting happened in September 1995. That’s when K&C launched the “ARNHEM’44” series. Little did we, or anyone else, realize at the time, that the matt-painted toy soldier would soon become the industry and hobby norm!

Hope this background story helps set the facts and record straight…

Best wishes and happy collecting!

Andy

Andy,
Thanks for the clarifications, you and I have often discussed parts of this story over time and I figured you knew it better than I!!!

The real point for me here in the Reeves story is that these are the figures that opened my own eyes to matte figures in the 1980s (the Napoleonic Band and ACW) in particular. As a kid, all I knew was "Britains Metal Models" (which I still have too!). When I first saw the Napoleonic Band, I thought they were the most realistic toy soldiers I had ever seen. Of course, years later, I rediscovered toy soldiers and saw King & Country and thought HOLY COW. As to who is the stylistic Godfather, I should clarify that I discovered Reeves first due to the FAO Schwartz (My Dad's trips) connection, so for me, I had never ever seen a matte figure until then. Again, years later when I saw K&C, I was amazed all over again to a much higher detailed degree!

Long story short as I shared with Andy, I never thought my Reeves collection would lead me to where I am now.

To answer other questions, yes, the gentleman in Florida was originally a distributor for Reeves and does have some of the molds/recasts (he is now formally retired). These were from his store display many years ago. As Andy indicated, Reeves near the end produced many one offs (or in this case a former employee made/copied some lines). I also somewhere have a Sands of Iwo Jima Flag Raising that is a promo and very crude/non detailed sculpt.

All in all, it is a neat connection/back story and thanks Andy for finishing it, just reminds you how small the world can be even globes away!

Tom

 

[tdubel]

It's a shame Andy doesn't write his history of K & C. He's got so many interesting stories.

Andy,
we know you are extremely swamped, but I agree, your book if you ever do it would be an incredible read for the collector.

TD

 

[jazzeum]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, but Tom has the most varied and interesting collection that I know of. First, he discovers that very interesting and rare Warriors of the Plains K & C set in his collection and now this.

Wonder what else he has in that basement?

Maybe Tom should write his own book

 

[Iron Brigade]

Hi Guys, hi Tom,

Re my friend Tom Dubel’s photos of the Chinese figures he posted yesterday.

Let me provide you with the actual background.

1. They are not “King White” figures and, most importantly, they do not pre date K&C’s “Streets of Old Hong Kong” series!
However there is a King White/ King & Country connection…

2. The guy who produced them was, at one time, the foreman of the King White factory here in HK up until the death of Mr. Cheung, the owner and operator of King White.

3. A couple of years after Mr. Cheung’s death, in the early 1990’s the former foreman approached K&C and offered to make figures on our behalf. He had set up his own small factory.

4. We decided to give him a trial with some of our earliest “Streets of Old Hong Kong” pieces. This he did and the results were “so-so”.
By this time K&C had already shifted its figure production from Hong Kong into Mainland China and, quite frankly, we could and did get better quality at a better price!

5. However, we persevered with the ex King White foreman and gave him a few orders over a period of about a year. To be honest, this guy’s quality was variable at best and he was not particularly reliable so it was perhaps not surprising that we parted ways.

6. Not long afterwards we started to see, in a few small gift shops around Hong Kong, our friend’s “own” version of our “Streets” figures. Most, if not all, of the figures shown in Tom’s photos were based on original K&C’s “Streets” series… The Man with the birdcage… The Fortune Teller… The Shoeshine Boy… and various rickshaws… even the little kids and the prisoner with his head in a wooden block!

7. The figures were not around very long and disappeared after a few months as did the ex foreman himself.

8. So, I can assure you King White were most definitely not the “Stylistic Godfather” of K&C and/or the progenitors of the “Chinese Style” of matt painting. In the 1980’s and perhaps before King White did produce in both gloss and matt styles. In all modesty the real beginning of the matt style of figure painting happened in September 1995. That’s when K&C launched the “ARNHEM’44” series. Little did we, or anyone else, realize at the time, that the matt-painted toy soldier would soon become the industry and hobby norm!

Hope this background story helps set the facts and record straight…

Best wishes and happy collecting!

Andy

Dear Andy:

Do you have an exact or approximate date when K&C's very first Streets of Old Hong Kong series got started?

"Iron Brigade" / Gary

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I've said this before and I'll say it again, but Tom has the most varied and interesting collection that I know of. First, he discovers that very interesting and rare Warriors of the Plains K & C set in his collection and now this.

Wonder what else he has in that basement?

At least one K&C NAP figure I want that he thinks he has but can't find.

Terry

 

[tdubel]

At least one K&C NAP figure I want that he thinks he has but can't find.

Terry

I know.........I am beginning to think he is a casualty of war!!!!

I did find 2 Brit Flagbearers of more recent vintage, i think NA 185 and 194.

TD

 

[theBaron]

Thank you, Andy, for giving us that background, and filling in holes in our story.

I must respectfully disagree on point 8, though, and stand by my statement that KW is the first example of this style. Understood, that they produced both matte and gloss examples, but the style is not exclusively matte in finish. It takes in the style of painting, including a distinct and recognizable way the faces are painted, especially the eyes. Unless K&C started producing figures before KW started, I think my statement is accurate. Considering that both companies operated in Hong Kong, in the same community, it's not surprising to find a common style establishing itself.

By the same token, we can look at the figures by Jack Scheid, Dr. Bussler and Bill Imrie and Clyde Risley, and see some common features in their style, that would allow us to group them together, geographically (eg, produced in the US), and chronologically (eg, all began working and developing their lines in the decade after WWII and into the 60's), and it is a style that sets them apart from their contemporaries in Britain at the time (eg, Stadden, Gammage, Greenwood & Ball).

I mean no disrepect in making these comments, these are just my opinions, based on my own observations, and of course, I allow for correction, for things that I don't yet know, or have misinterpreted.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Gideon]

I wholly agree with Brad on this.

The King White/Reeves figures in matte finish appeared in the 1980's - well before anything K&C produced in Matte.

That's like debating who made the Trophy sets first.

If we want to split hairs even finer, we could go back to the 1930's/40's and start talking about the development of Courtenay figures and even some of Selwyn Smiths work (along with Smiths collaboration with Courtenay) before selling the Agincourt series to Britains. On top of that, Freddy Ping as well.

Unless I am somehow wrong, the King White/Reeves figures in matte predate anything K&C or Frontline have done.

Other than that, the story is fascinating about the connection Andy had with the foreman. I wonder now if Toms figures have a whole new interest to some K&C collectors...

 

[tdubel]

I wholly agree with Brad on this.

The King White/Reeves figures in matte finish appeared in the 1980's - well before anything K&C produced in Matte.

Other than that, the story is fascinating about the connection Andy had with the foreman. I wonder now if Toms figures have a whole new interest to some K&C collectors...

Hi Gid,

I got my first Reeves figure in 1981 - it was the Napoleonic Bandmaster.

As for Andy's story, I need to copy that into word, then get Andy to sign it as a Certificate, laminate it.................. then I would have a certified treasure!!!

Just kidding, these will stay in my collection always, too much of a connection to my childhood Reeves as well as a bonus connection to K&C.

I will get a picture posted of the Special Forces figures from my UK Friend "Wraith".

TD