Prussian Organization (1 Viewer)

[Fraxinus]

http://www.kronoskaf.com/syw/index.php?title=Prussian_Line_Infantry_Organisation

As many of you know, I am one of the two "totally official" JJD forum page rivet counters.... so this is what we can expect out of the Prussian releases!!

From Seven War Web Page: Prussian Organization

In 1748, a normal two battalion regiment counted a total of 1,603 men (excluding regimental staff):

50 officers
118 non commissioned officers
37 drummers
6 fifers
252 grenadiers (including 12 carpenters)
1,140 musketeers
In 1756, a normal two battalions regiment counted a total of 1,712 men:

50 officers
118 non commissioned officers
6 oboeists
6 fifers
38 drummers
12 pioneers/carpenters
262 grenadiers
1,220 musketeers
In January 1757, all companies were reinforced by another 30 men.
________________


Organisation of a Regiment
In 1756, a regiment usually counted two battalions. Each battalion consisted of 5 companies of musketeers and 1 company of grenadiers.

_________________

In 1756, a grenadier company counted a total of 150. More precisely, it consisted of:

4 officers
1 captain
1 lieutenant
1 second lieutenant
1 ensign
9 non commissioned officers
1 senior sergeant
2 sergeants
1 captain at arms
1 fourier [regimental quartermasters assistant]
4 corporals
3 drummers
2 fifers
1 pioneer/carpenter
125 grenadiers
6 supernumeraries


GUYS, WE GET OBOEISTS !!!!^&grin^&grin^&grin^&grin AS LOUIS B SAYS - "THIS TRULY IS THE GOLDEN AGE OF TOY SOLDIERS!!!"

 

[Phantom Warrior]

How long a time were oboists used? And what was their purpose compared to drums and fifes?

Who is the other JJD rivet counter?

Terry

 

[Fraxinus]

Totally clueless - still trying to figure out where I would hit someone if I was armed with an oboe.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I suspect there were oboes in military bands but not used for signaling in combat??

Terry

 

[theBaron]

The oboes ("Hautboisten" auf deutsch) provided music on the march or for social occasions. In combat, the musicians were usually assigned to recover and assist the wounded. But a contemporary account compared them to the swallows, who disappear at the end of the summer, to return in the spring. "No one knows where they secrete themselves in between" (from Duffy).

Fraxinus, one question on the grenadier companies. I've never seen a table that lists an ensign, because the grenadier companies didn't carry colors. Unless that's just a translation of the rank, and the author didn't actually mean the Fähnrich as color-bearer.

Regarding which figures to expect, I imagine that the first releases, when assembled in a group, should depict the storming of the churchyard by the II/Garde, as far as I know. There should be an officer figure representing Lieutenant Möllendorf (later General and then Field-Marshal) leading the assault party.

Whatever they will be, I'm looking forward to them eagerly!

Prost!
Brad

 

[Combat]

Totally clueless - still trying to figure out where I would hit someone if I was armed with an oboe.

I think you just play it and the enemy begs for mercy. I remember the poor kids in school practicing on these instruments of torture for Christmas programs and such.

 

[Fraxinus]

http://archive.org/stream/docksorderlybook00bradrich#page/lvi/mode/2up

Brad,

Good chance I am mis-reading your question, but from reading up on BoM, I got the impression that an Ensign was the youngest officer rank in many European Armies. Not connected to a flag or naval duty or rank. The way the rank is used in Braddock's Orderly Book seems to bear that out (See link above). The way Braddock's Orderly Book reads, Ensigns and Lieutenants seem to be grouped as Subalterns, but not Captains, but I could be wrong yet again!!!

 

[Warrior]

I think you just play it and the enemy begs for mercy.

Thanks Doug for a true LOL moment, about my third one on the forum today, some of you guys are in rare form today...................

 

[theBaron]

http://archive.org/stream/docksorderlybook00bradrich#page/lvi/mode/2up

Brad,

Good chance I am mis-reading your question, but from reading up on BoM, I got the impression that an Ensign was the youngest officer rank in many European Armies. Not connected to a flag or naval duty or rank. The way the rank is used in Braddock's Orderly Book seems to bear that out (See link above). The way Braddock's Orderly Book reads, Ensigns and Lieutenants seem to be grouped as Subalterns, but not Captains, but I could be wrong yet again!!!

It's a translation issue, then. In the Prussian and other German armies, the rank of ensign (who carried a color), was referred to variously as Fähnrich (which one etymology describes as coming from the nickname "Fahnen-Heinrich" in use in the 17th century), Fahnenjunker or Frei-Korporal. Very true, they were all the most junior officers--in the case of the Frei-Korporal, he was ranked as a senior non-com, but was a candidate for officer's rank, once a position became free, and was expected to consort with the officers, not the non-coms. But since grenadiers didn't have colors in any of the German armies (with the exception of the Garde-Grenadier-Regiment, Friedrich Wilhelm's old Giant Grenadiers), they didn't have an ensign. The table of command went from the senior sergeant to the lieutenant. The non-coms wore the grenadier caps, too, by the way, while the lieutenant wore the tricorn as befit a gentleman.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Scarlet Pimpernel]

Fraxinus:

Let me know when you are ready to order your 262 grenadiers...I'll try to keep that many in stock

Regarding the oboists...you rarely see them in combat as they are usually the first ones shot, and usually by their own side.

 

[Fraxinus]

http://books.google.com/books?id=xH...ey+bland&hl=en#v=snippet&q=detachment&f=false

See page 185 in Bland. My understanding is Washington always had a copy of Bland at his bedside during the AWI.

A better representation of the British model of organization --- this would have been the standard during the FIW and probably the AWI. From Braddock's orderly books and Bland's manual, I get the feeling that British orders from higher commands followed this form "take these many officers, with these many serjeants, and take these many men" - not by done by squad, platoon or company. Officers may or may not be named.

Have fun with the 'f' and "ff" when reading old manuscripts, f will often now be an s and ff = ss.

As for myself, downsizing to 'detachments'. Detachment is now my new favorite word.

 

[theBaron]

Have fun with the 'f' and "ff" when reading old manuscripts, f will often now be an s and ff = ss.

Getting to use my language background now

That "f" was actually a separate letter, in typeface, the character was shaped similarly to an "f", but in older handscripts, it was drawn like a long, vertical, flattened "s". It represented the hard "s", as in "such", "separate". The "s" that we still use was used to represent "s" at the end of a word.

The German "ess-tsett" (β) is a combination of that same "hard s" and the "soft s", as a character in typeface.

The distinction has long since died out in English orthography, and the Germans also have begun eliminating the "Ess-tsett", replacing it with a double-s.

Sorry--this is what I studied in college, I was a linguist by course of study.

Prost!
Brad

By the way--the Seven Years War Project at Kronoskaf.com is an excellent resource. There are a lot of members in Europe, with access to original source material, and I've found answers to some difficult detail questions there. I recommend it highly.

 

[Obee]

I suspect there were oboes in military bands but not used for signaling in combat??

Terry

This is my Gros Grenadier Band 1st Guards Battalion (No 15)

a set of model figure castings T54/308 - 311 & 405,406 by Tradition of London.

Note the oboe on the right in the back row AND the bassoon too

John

 

[Phantom Warrior]

This is my Gros Grenadier Band 1st Guards Battalion (No 15)

a set of model figure castings T54/308 - 311 & 405,406 by Tradition of London.

Note the oboe on the right in the back row AND the bassoon too

John

And that was Obee on the Oboe ^&grin^&grin

Terry

 

[Fraxinus]

John, A very attractive group of figures. Another gloss temptation. Tradition does some really nice work.

And that was Obee on the Oboe

That is the best pure pun I can ever remember reading on these boards.:salute:::salute::