Question about new King Tiger and Char B1 bis (1 Viewer)

[Monty]

Eazy

Would a third version not of kindled the flames of " here he goes again with the repaints!!!.

We have to understand that every time a new limited is produced then there are many a toysoldier collector out there who miss out.

Granted to potentially declare a number run before the run has started can be a kick in the teeth of the forum avid collector. But are we not to blame!? we ask for information as soon as and then if it changes for what ever reason we go for the kill. Andy is very customer friendly with what he does where else can you speak direct to the owner/creator/designer of a product.

There are often posts on here by close contacts of Andy and Andy himself and the talk is always of i am looking at or we are going to etc.

Re the dealers!!! anybody that has a close relationship with their dealer i am sure will know what they are upto. UKBOD anybody that knows the Nevs of K&CUK will know that they do not try and run any scams to get sales. and also anybody that Knows Mike of K&C UK will know that he is not the best of computer wizzes and the fact it still states it on their site will be an oversite.

100- or a 1000 around the world of any model will make it difficult to get. Myself i have both on preorder not because i feel pushed into it I LIKE the model and WANT the model and preordering i can make sure i have it.

My order is still in.

And re Andy's reply!!!! give the guy a break he owns the company and has family and also it is near to Chinease NY and production will be effected and if he is out at Factories he will be very busy.


Monty

 

[Steven Chong]

As a further aside about King and Country not yet responding, since it's Chinese New Year, King and Country may be closed for another week or so.

Dear Guys,
This year, Chinese New Year is January 29, 2006. Most Hong Kong companies are open prior to Chinese New Year, but all (except hotels and some restaurants) will close for 4 to 5 days starting on New Year's Day. Many people who have the flexibility (like Andy) leave for holiday several days before New Year's Day to beat the huge holiday travel rush (up to 50% of Hong Kong's population, or close to 3 million people, travel on Chinese New Year.

 

[Eazy]

Monty

I'm not saying it's a scam. Nobody is trying to cheat anybody i just feel that the originally stated production numbers should have been adhered to.

I'm not criticizing anybody or trying to offend King and Country i'm just stating how i feel as a customer on this issue.

Regarding King and Country UK they are a great bunch of guys (and lady) and their customer service is second to none. But they are listing these tanks mistakenly as limited numbers and, whatever you say, that IS a selling point. Now King and Country must have given the dealers those numbers in the first place. They didn't just all make them up.

As for the repaints yes that is another debate BUT it would have solved this issue by satisfying the customers that ordered the "limited" one and satisfying the extra demand at the same time.

 

[Louis Badolato]

Okay guys, let me clarify a few of NJJA's points. With regard to Arnhem, the first six sets were initially limited to a run of 500 with certificates bearing the signatures of several surviving Arnhem Veterans. Later, a second release of these same sets was announced (contemporaneous with the release of Arnhem sets 9 through (I believe) 13 or 14. In addition to the absence of certificates, there were subtle changes to some of the figures, like the para kneeling or squatting next to the sign reading "Arnhem 1 KM" having a much taller sign post.

With regard to Vietnam, it was limited in production to 500 sets, and mine all came with certificates. I am unaware of any further releases without certificates.

There were instances where figures from limited sets were produced in numbers far in excess of the stated set amounts, and sold individually. The most common example of this is the RAF and Luftwaffe pilot sets, which were limited production as a set (which is why the original box and certificate is important with these) but either re-released as part of another limited set (the RAF pilots as 4/5 of "Churchill and the Few") or individually distributed with the applicable aircraft.

In the past, when there was not a great demand for K&C, it was never a big issue. In fact, many of the original sets, which were "strictly limited" editions of 1000, 500 or 200, were never produced in even close to the authorized amount, because of lack of demand. A great example is the original glossy Axis Leaders Set, which was authorized to 500, but as far as I recall, less than 400 were actually made.

Some of the most valuable sets in the secondary market were those not intended to be limited editions, but small run repaints such as the winter series, or the ambush panther. There were no promises as to the amounts of these releases, but, because relatively few were made, and now demand is high, the winter Tiger, Kubelwagon and most recently 88mm have commanded more than $1000 on ebay. Had these items been popular when released (which they were not particularly) I'm sure Andy would have done what he has done with the King Tiger and Char B, jacked up production.

 

[jazzeum]

Dear Guys,
This year, Chinese New Year is January 29, 2006. Most Hong Kong companies are open prior to Chinese New Year, but all (except hotels and some restaurants) will close for 4 to 5 days starting on New Year's Day. Many people who have the flexibility (like Andy) leave for holiday several days before New Year's Day to beat the huge holiday travel rush (up to 50% of Hong Kong's population, or close to 3 million people, travel on Chinese New Year.

I stand corrected and probably should know better since my wife is Chinese

 

[sceic2]

This has been a very interesting thread to read as it grows larger, rather quickly compared to other threads.

I agree with NJJA that credibility is very important. The repeated reissuing of sets, even with the minor modifications that Louis has pointed out, just does not give me much confidence in the exact numbers that were really issued.

Now having previously posted that I do not regard my particpation in this hobby as an investment, I still have value in the sets and figures that I have collected. While I may not want a growth in their value as my primary reason for buying them, I would like some value to be present for the amount of money I have spent. And if the manufacturer is "adding" to previously listed limited runs, I have some doubt about what limited edition really means. I know we are not talking about millions of figures, but look at the value of other types of collectables. I need only mention those stupid small stuffed animals everyone was so hot to get about 7 or 8 years ago.

I think it is very important that Andy not only respond to this critical issue, but he must also ensure that his company's reputation is made whole again. This situation could be a marketing nightmare if allowed to continue as this thread appears to be headed. Dissatisfied customers are not future customers. I still value K&C and to me what has happened is a communication problem and it can be made right. Michael

 

[Njja]

Thank you Louis for clearing up some of the productin numbers. And I agree

100% that things that happened in the past when the demand was much less

have to be viewed differently. I think the only Real Point of this entire thread

has simply become, integrity.

King & Country has no responsibility to limit production, on that we all agree,

but once they of their own accord release a production number, and pre-sales

are taken they need to honor their word.

That is my beef in a nutshell, I just hope this is the last time this type of

event occurs.

Njja

 

[Flammenpanzer]

Okay it looks as if we are up to a 1000 pieces now for the King Tiger

"King Tiger (Revised Painting) Description : A new version of our King Tiger. It's in a striking two color paint scheme adopted in the last six months of the European War. The tank’s crew figures have also been repainted in different camouflage uniforms. Status : Available in February Limited Run of 1000 Pieces. Don't miss out! Pre-order one today."

Here is one from another dealer:

This new King Tiger is in a striking two colour paint scheme adopted in the last six months of the European War. The tanks crew figures have also been repainted in different camouflage uniforms. Just 500 of these 2nd version King Tigers have been produced.
NEW! Scheduled for release February. Pre Order Now!

Are we confused yet

 

[King & Country]

Hey Njja,

Give me a break! And also get things into proportion… there are disasters and then there are real disasters!
For the record here’s exactly what happened… a couple of months ago we could see that both the “Berlin” King Tiger and the FOB Char Blbis were going to run out of their initial production runs – 1,000 and 500 respectively.
Well I thought what should I do? I had 3 options:
A. Let them “run out” – end of story
B. Do a “repeat order” with the factory (usually 500 and 250 respectively). Exactly same colour… same markings… same everything or… C. Do a new “paint job” for both and make some minor amendments. And release again 500 and 250 respectively – as that is what I could sell at the time.
Call me old-fashioned if you will, but option 'C' seemed to offer the most fun for me, the dealers and most of all you, the collectors.
And that’s what we basically did. What we also did was let dealers know that was the plan… Now what I tried to tell dealers was that we only originally planned a limited number (500 and 250). Please note my mistake I should never have used “Limited” because some people started confusing that with our official “Strictly Limited” releases which come with special boxes… brochures/certificates etc. etc.
I only meant that I thought 500 and 250 would meet the dealer demand… how little did I know. Within 24 hours we had dealer orders far in excess of the original numbers and some dealers screaming for even more!
So what did we do… we contacted the factory and “upped” the order to meet the majority of dealers requests – pure and simple.
There was… there is no “conspiracy” to mislead either dealers or collectors. If some collectors no longer want to purchase any of these particular “new paint” jobs that's their decision and choice – it’s still a free world.
To be frank no one pulls a gun and puts it to a collector's head and forces him to buy anything he or she does not want.
Some people on these forums forget that I am also a collector and I buy what I like… if I like it. Whilst the increase in the values of K&C continues to grow that is only a reflection of the increase of new people coming into the hobby.
Many years ago new collectors would come up to me at a show or in my Hong Kong store and ask, “If I buy this will it increase in value?”
My answer was always the same… “Don't buy it for that reason, buy it because you like it and it gives you pleasure.”
Years later the same question still comes up. I always give the same answer.

Best wishes and…Happy Collecting!
Andy C.

 

[Pierre]

I really don't care that the production number of the WS71 and FOB010 had been increased as I would had do the same: order them as soon as they were annonced (please, excuse all my faults, english is not my maternal language).

I collect K&C military figures, I'm not stocking them for re-sale on eBay.

The very limited (in the sense of small, not special) production annonced may had looked like a good opportunity for relatively big profits in a very short period of time.

If the dealers, as the pre-orders let them see that the demand was high, made pressure on K&C for an increase and that K&C responded favorably to their request, it is correct. The dealers are there to make profits. Healthty dealers are good for K&C and K&C is good for us, collectors.

With due respect, I can't see how K&C and the dealers can be looked like competitors for someones who are selling on the secondary market. The said secondary market, as his name states it, is secondary. He is subordinated to the primary market wich is the one, in first place, of the dealers. The profits must be made first by the dealers, not by individuals who will buy as many as possible of WS71 and FOB010 sets for re-sale on eBay. The buyers are entitled to buy their items firstly from their dealers and at the retail price.

If Mr. Neilson realized that producing 250 and 500 exemplaries of FOB010 and WS71 was a mistake, he has the right to correct it and to give the opportunity to his dealers to increase their sales and to make, them firstly, profits.

We are far away from a situation where we are buying a set, at a higher price, because it is a Limited Edition. On the contrary, we are facing a normal production and nothing was said that it will be limited and/or nothing was done to let us believe that the production would stay so low.

I can't imagine that I must be in the obligation to buy an item on the secondary market just because the production is so small that 2 or 3 persons buy all the production (wich is easily practicable) or near all the production and create a false rarity of a product.

Everybody must stay at his place. K&C is the producer, the dealers are the sellers, the collectors are the buyers and the secondary market sellers are the profiteers of the popularity of the wonderful products of K&C.

N.B. I used the word profiteer witout any contempt as I previously sold K&C figures with profits. In no way I want to insult somebody and if I did it, please forgive me. As it surely appears, I'm translating word to word my thinking from french to english.

Pierre.

 

[Pierre]

Just took knowledge of the post of Mr. Neilson.

Pierre.

 

[Eazy]

Hi Pierre,

I don't really think this thread was about resale value or secondary markets. Certainly for my part i only buy one of each item that i like. I have no interest in selling my collection. I get more enjoyment just displaying and looking at my collection than looking at a few numbers on a bank statement.

The main feeling behind this thread was the misleading numbers. I personally placed a quick preorder for thos items because a) i liked the look of them and b) they seemed sure to sell out quickly and i didn't want to miss out.

Now thanks to King and Country's post the matter has been officially cleared up.

I still intend to cancel my preorders though.

That money will go on the new DAK stuff and also on those fantastic looking Honour Bound panthers

 

[sceic2]

Thank you Andy for your point of view.

As I suspected, it was a communication problem related to the terms "limited" and "strictly limited." If I were in your position, trying to satisfy customer demand to make a profit, I (more than likely not) would have done the same thing - add on additional factory orders. Perhaps some dealers should begin to learn the difference between the two terms and use them more wisely in their marketing programs?

Again,to reinforce my personal position, I buy and have always bought K&C and my other miniatures for personal pleasure. I believe that the majority of collectors are doing the same while a few are trying to take advantage of that position by reselling at higher than retail price (and they have a right to do that). Michael

 

[jazzeum]

In my view this whole thing was a tempest in a teapot

 

[Njja]

To Andy C.

I already gave you a break, when you told us the WS69 Certificate issue

was a prinitng error and not worth risking your integrity over. I accepted your

word 100%.

In this issue I do not, you sold product to customers (if even in one case)

by falsely listing runs that you now do not intend to honor. As you yourself

stated "as that is what I could sell at the time" is that more

important then keeping your word?

Wouldn't it have been a better idea to let the run stand as advertised and

made a third open ended run to satisfied perceived dealer demand?

Now you sound like a Politican explaining the difference between "Limited"

and "Strictly Limited". Are you telling me Limited means Unlimited unless it has

Strictly in fromt of it? What kind of nonsense is that?????

How should we view future releases is it a "Limited" run?? or perhaps its a

"Strictly Limited" run, and what are the limits? Apparently how many

you can sell, very, dissapointing I must say.

I suggest in the future you "Say what you mean, and mean what you say".

Leave the "Double Talk" to the Poliiticions its their field.

There are a lot of people pinching pennies out there to buy your products

and you owe them honesty.


Njja

 

[vandilay]

Hi
I think the only mistake that was made was to announce numbers on the char etc, Having just bought the strictly ltd tiger i was also a little confused by this. However accusing someone of being dishonest is a pretty full on acusation.A lot of people have stated in the other thread this is for fun, not financial gain,theirfour whether its 250 or 1000 should make no difference.
I think the big thing with small numbers being relised was people thought they may miss out so jumped in quickly and a few probably saw a buck to be made.But once again if you bought the model because you liked it, not for possible gain ,I dont see a problem .

 

[Njja]

Hi
I think the only mistake that was made was to announce numbers on the char etc, Having just bought the strictly ltd tiger i was also a little confused by this. However accusing someone of being dishonest is a pretty full on acusation.A lot of people have stated in the other thread this is for fun, not financial gain,theirfour whether its 250 or 1000 should make no difference.
I think the big thing with small numbers being relised was people thought they may miss out so jumped in quickly and a few probably saw a buck to be made.But once again if you bought the model because you liked it, not for possible gain ,I dont see a problem .

To clear up a point, I am not accusing anyone of being dis-honest. I am

simply stating that once authorized dealers state a run is going to be 250

ot 500 pieces, and people commit to order the product the numbers should

not change.

And lets drop the Strictly limited, or change it to Quiz-Limited.

It is really quite simple.

Njja

 

[Shannon Reuss]

I don't see how Andy/King & Country is to "blame" for the mixup here. If anyone is at fault it is the dealers. Consider this: Each month King & Country releases a "Dispatch" email update to its DEALERS. So, around January 1st, King & Country informed its DEALERS that instead of retiring the Char and King Tiger completely they were going to try something different with them by using a different paint scheme. Not knowing how well they might sell, they kept production estimates modest. Immediately dealers began placing orders and it became obvious that demand was greater than anticipated. King & Country send out notices letting dealers know how many each would receive. No one I have talked to got their entire order filled. Dealers complained. King & Country then sent another email out to dealers explaining the increased demand and giving them one chance to increase their order from what they had originally been allotted. Dealers were only given a few days to make a change otherwise they got the original partially filled order.
It is almost February 1st and time for the next King & Country dispatch. I assume in this email an update of the production situation will be given along with all the other breaking news dealers want.
Where in this process is King & Country "letting the customers down, or leading them astray"? This was obviously K&C communicating with their dealers back and forth on a new product and getting the particulars straightened out. It would have been odd to get a dispatch that read "We don't really know how many we should produce, so we figure we'll probably make 250 of this and 500 of that, but what do you dealers think? How many would you order if we only made this many? Or do you think we should make more?" That's no way to run a business!
I've been selling King & Country for a long time now and from the beginning begged and pleaded for more information on upcoming releases etc. that used to be hard to come by. I am thrilled each time I get a dispatch because it helps me plan for new lines and upcoming releases. The dispatch is for the benefit of the DEALERS. I gladly pass the information along to my customers, but when all is said and done the info in the dispatch is part of a conversation between manufacturer and dealer and if the conversation takes a different turn and the end result is different than anticipated I don't see a problem with it. I call it good communication. Maybe we dealers jump the gun by making the dispatch information public. I'm afraid after all this complaining and outcry Andy is more likely to revert back to when we had to pry information out of him on new releases. I as a dealer would find that to be extremely frustrating.

Also, there is a world of difference between "limited" and "strictly limited." Only "strictly limiteds" are strictly limited. I don't see why that is so confusing. To use another manufacturers product as an example, Britains Art of War series is comprised of "limited editions" which means in this case, that the sets are produced for a year and then the molds are destroyed and no more are produced. That's limited. There is no specific production number they are shooting for, they just fill demand for a year and are done. Their short-lived stockingholder series (which I really liked by the way) was "strictly limited"--only 500 made. Straightforward enough.

Finally, no money has been spent by anyone for the new chars and King tigers. The next dispatch which will have updated information on these products will come out before the actual product is available. So a customer who reads the updated information in the latest dispatch news again passed on to them by dealers has time to decide if the increased production changes their mind on purchasing the items or not. I don't know of any dealer who would refuse to cancel a pre-order before the product even arrives. (If your dealer is like this, you know where to come ).
So in closing I think that all this happened in between dispatches and if everyone wasn't so hungry for any snippet of news from King & Country those numbers wouldn't have been an issue. I hate to think that in the future we dealers would have to keep the dispatch news to ourselves to avoid future outcries and misunderstandings.
Wow. I think this is a record for longest post.
Regards,

 

[Njja]

LIMIT, RESTRICT, CIRCUMSCRIBE, CONFINE mean to set bounds for. LIMIT implies setting a point or line (as in time, space, speed, or degree) beyond which something cannot or is not permitted to go.

According to Mr. Webster you don't need Strictly in front of Limit to define

Its meaning.

That is all, I am done.


Njja

 

[Louis Badolato]

As somebody who has known Andy for as long as anyone on this forum (with the exception of the Nevilles) I can state in no uncertain terms that when Andy gave his word on something to me over the least thirteen years he kept it. Andy may be in this business for the profit (he is, after all, Scottish - and my Scottish Granny always pinched her pennies), and we may get the occasional photograph of an expensive item with the caption "figures not included" (inside joke for Hans and Larry), but he never cheated or lied to me, and I don't think he would start now over the few thousand dollars in profit off these two sets.

The only and I repeat ONLY grounds for complaint over the extension of a run that was issued without certificates is that the future resale value of the pieces might be diminished. As just about everybody on this forum who responded to the recent thread on the subject of pleasure vs. investment indicated they are in this for the joy of collecting, I don't see how 500 instead of 250 repainted Char-B Tanks makes any big difference. They are still far more limited in production than the recent wheeled 88mm gun or the "strictly limited" Tiger, both of which are selling for three times retail on ebay only months after they were retired.

Finally, gentleman, don't acuse Andy of dissembling when it was the dealers, not he, who announced how limited the production runs would be. Andy made us no promises. He quoted the dealers a number, and then, upon their complaints that they were not receiving enough, increased production. This is a misunderstanding arising out of the dealers being in the middle between Andy and the collectors, nothing more.

Andy, with his careful use of the retirement concept and the issuance of true certified strictly limited sets has created the excellent secondary market for his product which we, the collectors, enjoy. I really don't see a lot of Frontline or Imperial sets selling for retail, much less multiples of retail on ebay, so, for those of us who accidentally made better investments than New York City real estate by buying the old sets at retail, lets enjoy giving our wives the occasional "I told you so", thank Andy for being a good business man, and move on.

And as far as screwing up the numbering on the certificates is concerned, this is not the first time. At the Chicago show Mike Neville was showing a similar screw up on one of the older limited edition set certificates, a set that was never issued up to the full authorized amount. These little mistakes only serve to jack up the value of the one or two sets with mistaken certificates, it does not hurt the value of the remainder of the sets (as is evidenced by the resale numbers for the limited edition StuG on Ebay).