Re-Arming Custer's 7th (1 Viewer)

[Dragoon]

It's good to see this next batch of 7th Cavalry troopers to be released are armed with the proper '73 Springfield carbines. I was a bit put out to see that K&C's first big release of Custer's men were fighting with old Civil War Spencers. The two carbines look quite different from each other, so it takes a little bit of filing, putty and paint to convert them. I guess for some the wrong carbine is no big deal, and this post is considered 'rivet-counting' - But the 7th going into battle at the Little Big Horn armed with the SINGLE SHOT '73 Springfield is an important detail of this battle, with many believing it had some impact on it's outcome.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

It's good to see this next batch of 7th Cavalry troopers to be released are armed with the proper '73 Springfield carbines. I was a bit put out to see that K&C's first big release of Custer's men were fighting with old Civil War Spencers. The two carbines look quite different from each other, so it takes a little bit of filing, putty and paint to convert them. I guess for some the wrong carbine is no big deal, and this post is considered 'rivet-counting' - But the 7th going into battle at the Little Big Horn armed with the SINGLE SHOT '73 Springfield is an important detail of this battle, with many believing it had some impact on it's outcome.

It certainly reduced their firepower. Imagine if Custer had decided to take the Gatling guns along.

Terry

 

[Dragoon]

It certainly reduced their firepower. Imagine if Custer had decided to take the Gatling guns along.

Terry

I remember reading something about Reno taking one out on a scouting mission (the 7th was still with the main column at this point). The thing overturned on the rough terrain, and proved to be a real pain in the backside. This incident probably weighed heavily in Custer's decision to leave them behind.

 

[binder001]

Two problems with the M1873 Springfield carbine - 1) the cheap sfot cases might fail or jam in a hot carbine, either way the carbine was useless until it could be cleared. 2) The US Army had very poor training standards and that carried over into poor marksmanship. One article mentioned that standardized Army-wide marksmanship training didn't get established until the 1880s.

re: Gatling Guns - in the 19th Century the US Army regarded these as more like artillery. They were not used like a modern machine gun in a tactical sense. One or two guns might have gotten into action (remember also that this started as a mobile fight) but they would have been overwhelmed by numbers of Native Americans coming in from different directions.

Good original point about the Spencers versus Springfields. Being a firearms fancier I find it annoying that so few cavalry pistols look like M1873 Colts.

 

[Harper (aka Spitfrnd)]

Two problems with the M1873 Springfield carbine - 1) the cheap sfot cases might fail or jam in a hot carbine, either way the carbine was useless until it could be cleared. 2) The US Army had very poor training standards and that carried over into poor marksmanship. One article mentioned that standardized Army-wide marksmanship training didn't get established until the 1880s.

re: Gatling Guns - in the 19th Century the US Army regarded these as more like artillery. They were not used like a modern machine gun in a tactical sense. One or two guns might have gotten into action (remember also that this started as a mobile fight) but they would have been overwhelmed by numbers of Native Americans coming in from different directions.
.

In some of the battle analysis I have read it is said that there was little evidence of jaming or failure found in the recovered carbines. I have also read that until after the LBH, the army only provided for 20 shots per year for target practice. I used to be pretty good but not at that level of practice, particulary in the stress of trying to avoid being killed. Of course the marksmanship problem was not a Springfield issue.

I also agree about the Gatling guns. Most commanders of the time felt they had little use for in the type of fighting common to the western plains and it is doubtful they would have made any real difference.

 

[Rob]

Wasn't there a huge grass fire at the LBH many years back that uncovered hundreds of spent rounds enabling experts to track weapons as they moved around the doomed cavalrymen?

Rob

 

[Flyboy]

Very interesting history and view points here in reference to the rifles. Yes in 1983 there was a fire that burned a great big area there. It was from someone throwing out a cigarette. I do not know if the fire started a dig or something but it was the next year that they were first allowed to use a metal detector and found out a great deal of new information on how the group was divided up. I think Andy and King and Country covered that fairly well on the brochure or leaflet as they call them. I really like the rifle information presented and could see how that could have been a main problem. I hope to get a chance to go there one day and see some of this for myself. Great reading, Mike

 

[Dragoon]

Very interesting history and view points here in reference to the rifles. Yes in 1983 there was a fire that burned a great big area there. It was from someone throwing out a cigarette. I do not know if the fire started a dig or something but it was the next year that they were first allowed to use a metal detector and found out a great deal of new information on how the group was divided up. I think Andy and King and Country covered that fairly well on the brochure or leaflet as they call them. I really like the rifle information presented and could see how that could have been a main problem. I hope to get a chance to go there one day and see some of this for myself. Great reading, Mike

I think that's what bothers me the most. I read this info. provided by K&C about their LBH series and all the ''research'' that when into it - Only to order a number of first release troopers and find out they're armed with the wrong carbine. It took less than TWO minutes to check some pretty common sources and reaffirm that they should be armed with single shot '73 Springfields and not the old 7 shot Spencer. I stopped collecting K&C several years ago and the new LBH series had temporarily brought me back - only to find some of the same old problems. Now the carbine mistake has been corrected in the upcoming Sept. releases, so I guess some things are looking up.