Request of Dehli Durbar Information (1 Viewer)

[wadepat]

Gentle Friends,

Since attending the OTSN show and acquiring several Beau Geste Dehli Durbar sets, I have found myself becoming increasingly interested in the event and the figures that have been produced to represent the event. I now wish to increase my knowledge of this subject. Consequently, I hope some of you can help me answer a few questions. My questions are as follows:

1. What references can you recommend (books, websites, etc.) that might help me develop a more comprehensive and correct knowledge of the Dehli Durbar event?

2. Is there a comprehensive list of units, groups, etc., that participated in the Grand Review? If so, where might I obtain it?

3. I have been looking at various websites and eBay to determine what toy soldier manufacturers have produced figures representing the event. To this end, I have identified that W. Britains, Beau Geste, William Hocker, and Marlborough have produced such figures. But, are there other toy soldier companies that have also done so? If so, who are these additional manufacturers?

4. Is information regarding the specific sets each toy soldier manufacturer produced readily available? If so, where would I find this information?

5. Is there a list of the special contests that were conducted at the Durbar available? I know that William Hocker has produced a few sets of contest events, but have other manufacturers also produced such sets? And,...are pictures of these sets available? If so, where are they available?

Whew! My questions seem like a tall order! Any help you can give me in answering these questions will be most appreciated. However, I must warn you that the more information you help me find will, doubtless, result in more questions!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Pat,

I can answer some of these questions it will require a long answer though so here goes.

I will start with telling you there are 3 major Durbars that have been extensively documented they were 1877, 1903 and 1911. The one we are dealing with is the 1903 Coronation Durbar for Edward the VII. So when you look for books you need to look at the details or ask the website seller for details before you drop what could be some significant cash!

The first and foremost sought after book in any condition is simply titled the Delhi Durbar. By Dorothy Menpes with illustrations by her husband Mortimer Menpes. These color plates are a major source of information used by the various Toy Soldier Companies. Copyright 1903 with no reprinting as far as I know.

the rest of these are in no significant order:

Coronation Durbar Delhi 1903 by Wiele and Klein of Madras Black and White Plates of the entire event extremely difficult to find in one piece The get broken up and sold as individual plates. A complete one went for over 100 GBP recently on ebay.

Curzon of India 2 Volumn set by David Dilks 1969 A detail account of his life and actions as Viceroy of India.

Stories from the Raj: Sahibs, Memsahibs and others By Pran Nevile

A Season in India: Letters of Ruby Madden ,Experiences of an Australian Girl at the Great Coronation Durbar, Delhi 1903. By Helen Rutledge. Detailed account of what she saw in there.

History of the Delhi Coronation Durbar By Stephan Wheeler I have seen this one and would say it is number two for anyone who is looking for books but it will probably be a little pricey.

His Royal Highness the Duke of Connaught and Strathearn, A Life and Intimate Study By MG Sir George Aston 1937. The Duke received the oaths of fielty and was the representative of his brother Edward the VII at the 1903 Durbar.

If I left out a dtae or a book or two please forgive me. Some of these books were only printed in 1903 and are very difficult to locate. So good luck and good hunting.

I got a website from Ana at Beau geste for the papers and most of the photos of Gertrude Bell. it is as follows:

www.gerty.ncl.ac.uk

This site has her diaries and letters which make for a really interesting read. Especially if you are interested in the goings on in society at the time. Her black and white photos are also highly sought after by collectors and only come up once in a while. But go to the site and check it out.

I have seen a printed list of events for this Durbar which included the list of military competitions and of course Polo and the Ball which was the event of the century for most of these folks.

The list of units is not quite as easy to come by but suffice to say I am working on it and will give you something in the next post. Right now you can include every British Unti as well all the major subordinate Maharajs forces and retainers. I will give you a list as soon as I can.

More will be forthcoming.

All the Best

Dave

 

[wadepat]

Dave,

Thank you for all the effort you are expending to help educate me concerning the Durbar event. I was aware that there were three major Durbars and that we were mainly concerned with the 1903 event. Nevertheless, your reminder of that fact is important for me to keep in mind, especially as I hunt for printed resources.

In the next few days when I have more time, I will explore the website you provided. Somehow, I think I am beginning a quest and a journey that will be great fun. I really appreciate all your kind assistance!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[Gideon]

Hi Pat,

Before Shamus Wade produced Marlborough, he made two series:

Nostaligia and Starr. The quality is on par if not better than Marlborogh. Each set was limited to about 100.

These are not easy to find and I have pretty sold off all of what I had left. I even regret selling a few of the sets too. Kinda kicking myself.

You may want to include those two names in your ebay searches. They do appear once in a blue moon.

 

[wadepat]

Hi Pat,

Before Shamus Wade produced Marlborough, he made two series:

Nostaligia and Starr. The quality is on par if not better than Marlborogh. Each set was limited to about 100.

These are not easy to find and I have pretty sold off all of what I had left. I even regret selling a few of the sets too. Kinda kicking myself.

You may want to include those two names in your ebay searches. They do appear once in a blue moon.

Gideon,

Thanks for the information and the tip. I will do as you suggest!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Again,

Gid you beat me to the punch I have one Shamus figure mounted on a Camel that is in my display. The following is a run down of the information I had readily available in my office:

This is a list of regiments of the British Indian Army after the Kitchener Reforms of 1903. These reforms were wide-ranging and helped further improve the Indian Army (though not enough to meet the future demands of World War I), which had been formed from the separate Bengal, Bombay and Madras armies in 1895 (replaced by the Bengal, Bombay, Madras and Punjab commands). Many of these units participated in the Durbar I am still working on which ones exactly but as you can see there were a lot I will go out on a limb and guess that most of the Frontier Forces were left on duty or had very small contingents take part I also think the Burma Units would have stayed home for the most part and the Rail Road BNs would have stayed on Duty to keep the country moving. The ones with a star by them were done by WBritains Company. I will give you a list of all the Marlborough sets I know of in another posting.

Regular Cavalry

Governor General's Bodyguard *
Governor's Bodyguard, Madras
Governor's Bodyguard, Bombay
1st Duke of York's Own Lancers (Skinner's Horse)*
2nd Lancers (Gardner's Horse)
3rd Skinner's Horse
4th Lancers
5th Cavalry (Bombay)*
6th Prince of Wales's Cavalry
7th Lancers
8th Lancers
9th Lancers* (Hollow Cast Mounted Band)
9th Hodson's Horse* (Bengal Lancers)
10th Duke of Cambridge's Own Lancers (Hodson's Horse)
11th Prince of Wales's Own Lancers
12th Cavalry
13th Duke of Cambridge's Own Lancers (Watson's Horse)
14th Murray's Jat Lancers
15th Lancers (Cureton's Multanis)
16th Cavalry
17th Cavalry
18th Tiawana Lancers
19th Lancers (Fane's Horse)
20th Deccan Horse
21st Prince Albert Victor's Own Cavalry (Frontier Force)
22nd Cavalry (Frontier Force)
23rd Cavalry (Frontier Force)
25th Cavalry (Frontier Force)
26th Light Cavalry
27th Light Cavalry *
28th Light Cavalry
29th Lancers (Deccan Horse)
30th Lancers (Gordon's Horse)
31st Duke of Connaught's Own Lancers
32nd Lancers
33rd Queen's Own Light Cavalry
34th Prince Albert Victor's Own Poona Horse
35th Scinde Horse
36th Jacob's Horse
37th Lancers (Baluch Horse)
38th Central India Horse *
39th Central India Horse

Auxiliary(Reserve Cavalry)

The Assam Valley Light Horse
The Bihar Light Horse
The Bikaner Camel Corps *
The Bombay Light Horse*
The Calcutta Light Horse
The Ghazipur Light Horse
The Goraldpur Light Horse
The Oudh Light Horse
The Punjab Light Horse
Queen's Own Corps of Guides *
The Surma Valley Light Horse



Regular Infantry

1st Brahmans
2nd (Queen's Own) Regiment of Rajput Light Infantry
3rd Brahmans
4th Prince Albert Victor's Rajputs
5th Light Infantry
6th Jat Light Infantry
7th (Duke of Connaught's Own) Rajputs
8th Rajputs
9th Bhopal Infantry
10th Jats
11th Rajputs
12th Pioneers (The Keat-i-Ghilzai Regiment) * (Bengal Infantry)
13th Rajputs (The Shekhawati Regiment)
14th Ferozepore Sikhs
14th Ludhiana Sikhs*
15th Ludhiana Sikhs*
16th Rajputs (The Lucknow Regiment)
17th The Loyal Regiment (Purbiah’s)* (Band )
18th Infantry
19th Punjabis
20th Duke of Cambridge's Own Punjabis
21st Punjabis
22nd Punjabis
23rd Sikh Pioneers
24th Punjabis
25th Punjabis
26th Punjabis
27th Punjabis
28th Punjabis
29th Punjabis
30th Punjabis
31st Punjabis
32nd Sikh Pioneers
33rd Punjabis
34th Sikh Pioneers
35th Sikhs
36th Sikhs
37th Dogras
38th Dogras
39th Garhwal Rifles
40th Pathans
41st Dogras
42nd Deoli Regiment
43rd Erinpura Regiment
44th Mharawara Regiment
45th Rattray's Sikhs *
46th Punjabis
47th Sikhs
48th Pioneers
51st Sikhs (Frontier Force)
52nd Sikhs (Frontier Force)
53rd Sikhs (Frontier Force)
54th Sikhs (Frontier Force)
55th Coke's Rifles (Frontier Force)
56th Punjabi Rifles (Frontier Force)
57th Wilde's Rifles (Frontier Force) *
58th Vaughan's Rifles (Frontier Force)
59th Scinde Rifles (Frontier Force)
61st Pioneers
62nd Punjabis
63rd Palamcottah Light Infantry
64th Pioneers
65th Carnatic Infantry
66th Punjabis
67th Punjabis
69th Punjabis
71st Coorg Infantry
72nd Punjabis
73rd Carnatic Infantry
74th Punjabis
75th Carnatic Infantry
76th Punjabis
77th Moplah Rifles
78th Moplah Rifles
79th Carnatic Infantry
80th Carnatic Infantry
81st Pioneers
82nd Punjabis
83rd Wallajahabad Light Infantry
84th Punjabis
86th Carnatic Infantry
87th Punjabis
88th Carnatic Infantry
89th Punjabis
90th Punjabis
91st Punjabis (Light Infantry)
92nd Punjabis
93rd Burma Infantry
94th Russell's Infantry
95th Russell's Infantry
96th Berah Infantry
97th Deccan Infantry
98th Infantry
99th Deccan Infantry
101st Grenadiers
102nd Grenadiers
103rd Mahratta Light Infantry
104th Wellesley's Rifles
105th Mahratta Light Infantry
106th Hazara Pioneers
107th Pioneers
108th Infantry
109th Infantry
110th Mahratta Light Infantry
112th Infantry
113th Infantry
114th Mahrattas
116th Mahrattas
117th Mahrattas
119th Infantry (The Mooltan Regiment)
120th Rajputana Infantry
121st Pioneers
122nd Rajputana Infantry
123rd Outram's Rifles
124th Duchess of Connaught's Own Baluchistan* (Britains is listed as the 24th)
125th Napier's Rifles *
126th Baluchistan Infantry *
127th Baluch Light Infantry*
128th Pioneers
129th Duke of Connaught's Own Baluchis
130th Baluchis
1st Gurkha Rifles (The Malaun Regiment)
2nd Prince of Wales's Own Gurkha Rifles (The Sirmoor Rifles) *
3rd Gurkha Rifles
4th Gurkha Rifles
5th Gurkha Rifles (Frontier Force)
6th Gurkha Rifles
7th Gurkha Rifles
8th Gurkha Rifles
9th Gurkha Rifles
10th Gurkha Rifles


Auxiliary (Reserve Infantry)

The Agra Volunteer Rifle Corps
The Allahabad Rifles
The Assam Bengal Railway Battalion
The Baluchistan Volunteer Rifle Corps
The Bangalore Contingent
The Bengal and North West Railway Battalion
The Bengal Nagpur Railway Battalion
The Bombay, Baroda and Central India Railway Regiment
The Bombay Volunteer Rifles Corps
The Calcutta and Presidency Battalion
The Calcutta Presidency Battalion
The Cawnpore Rifles
The Chota Nagpur Regiment
The Coorg and Mysore Company
The Coorg and Mysore Rifles
The Dehra Dun Mounted Rifles
The East Coast Battalion
The East Indian Railway Regiment
The Eastern Bengal Company
The Eastern Bengal Railway Battalion
The Great Indian Pensinula Railway Regiment
The Hyderabad Rifles * Britains did the 3rd Hyderabad Contingent Infantry unsure if this was an amalgamated unit for the Durbar)
The Kolar Goldfields Battalion
The Lucknow Volunteer Rifle Corps
The Madras and Southern Mahratta Railway Rifles
The Madras Guards
The Malabar Volunteer Rifles
The Malwah Bheel Corps
Meywa Bheel Corps
The Midlands Volunteer Rifle Corps
The Moulmein Volunteer Rifle Corps
The Mussourie Battalion
The Nagpur Rifles
The Naini Tal Volunteer Rifles
The Nilgri Malabar Battalion
The Northern Bengal Mounted Rifles
The North West Railway Battalion
The Oudh and Rohilkhand Railway Battalion
The Poona Rifles
Queen's Own Corps of Guides *
The Shillong Volunteer Rifles
The Simla Rifles
The South Andaman Volunteer Rifles Corps
The South Indian Railway Battalion
The Yercaud Volunteer Rifle Corps

Military Police and Frontier

The Assam Rifles
Burma Military Police

Support Arms

Mountain Artillery * (No 1 Kohat Mountain Battery Punjab Frontier Force)
1st Sappers and Miners
2nd Queen's Own Sappers and Miners
3rd Sappers and Miners
Indian Submarine Mining Corps

Services

The Army Bearer Corps
The Army Clothing Department
The Army Hospital Corps
The Army Remount Department
The Army Veterinary Department
The Indian Medical Corps
The Indian Ordinance Corps
Supply and Transport Corps

So as you can see there are a lot of questions raised by your very interesting questions. I hope Richard Walker will pop in and have something to say on this subject too.

All the best

Dave

 

[Steven Chong]

... 4. Is information regarding the specific sets each toy soldier manufacturer produced readily available? If so, where would I find this information?

5. Is there a list of the special contests that were conducted at the Durbar available? I know that William Hocker has produced a few sets of contest events, but have other manufacturers also produced such sets? And,...are pictures of these sets available? If so, where are they available?

Dear Pat,

Information on Bill Hocker's Durbar sets are available on his website, http://wmhocker.com/ Look under the categories, "Imperial Durbar" and "Victorian Army at Ease." However, Hocker's Durbar sets are based on the Durbar of 1877.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Pat,

Errol John does some sets that could be used in a Durbar Display the lines are called the British Army in Mess Dress 1900 and Indian State Forces.

KingCast does a neat one called a Royal Navy Field Gun Competition that would be very fun to use in a Military Competition

Marlborough has done over 125 sets related to the Durbar.

S&S Miniatures also has some rather nice looking sets that would work in a Durbar Display

Fusiliar also did some nice Indian Army sets that appear to be the right period and cover some interesting units like 3rd Skinners Horse.

These are all I have in references like catelogs there may well be others other there but I think we have them all covered.

More later

Dave

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Guys,

I found a couple of pages from the Coronation Durbar Program that I had tucked away in my computer. Have to get a better filing system

Anyway here they are

Dave

 

[wadepat]

Dear Pat,

Information on Bill Hocker's Durbar sets are available on his website, http://wmhocker.com/ Look under the categories, "Imperial Durbar" and "Victorian Army at Ease." However, Hocker's Durbar sets are based on the Durbar of 1877.

Steven,

I am familiar with William Hocker's website, but somehow I overlooked the fact that his sets are based on the Durbar of 1877. Thank you for the clarifying information. It is an important distinction that I will keep in mind.

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[wadepat]

Dave,

My gosh!!! You are a wealth of good information! And, I thought that most folks on the forum focused almost completely on King and Country WW II items. Silly me!

Seriously, I very much appreciate the information you are providing. I hope I am not tiring you too much with all that research and typing!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Pat,

Most of it I had already done but needed some one to ask questions to focus my rather aimless wanderings. I have a tendency to start a project and get sidetracked by branches and sequels or as my wife says bright shinny things laying on the ground. I am glad that there are some other folks interested in the Durbar here in the US because it seems like most folks are devoted to WWII or the Napoleonic era.

I am still working on some more of the questions and will post later.

All the Best

Dave

 

[DMNamiot]

HI all,

The folks at Marlborough have done 172 sets according to the numbers on their web sites there are a few holes in the count though so I cant say if they discontinued a set or two or skipped some numbers for what ever reason.

Here is the count I have for Durbar sets:

Military units Indian or British: 115 sets

Civilians mainly Indians but some Brits: 46 sets

Hunting Scenes: 7 Sets heavy with Elephants.

Backdrops 10 if you include the reviewing stand.

It also appears they are still adding to the display. I imagine it would be quite amazing to see them all displayed together!

I have been adding Marlborough sets over the past two years and have 18 different sets including an elephant. My goal has been to totally complete the Britains Series and have a proper display according to the numbers they say you need for each set I only need to get one more set as far as I can tell I am still looking at the information I have inorder to determine if I need more Pipers for the Purbiahs Band. I also am only getting the sets from Marlborough that dont already duplicate a set Britains did such as the Hunting Cheetahs or the Gold and Silver Guns of Baroda. One of these days I will delve into Beau Geste but that will be a while. I know that Pat has some Hockner and Beau Geste sets but was wondering if you have acquired any others? What say the rest of you? Mitch I know you have some sets anything new? Lets hear from some of you other folks out there.

Dave

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi All,

Here are some new sets I have added to my collection. One is a part of the Marlborough series 17th Bengal Lancers Mounted Band and the Mounted Troopers. The other is a shot of a pair of Shamus Wade figures I found.

Dave

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi All,

I am curious to know whoelse out there aside from Wadepat and me collect the Durbar. We are always looking for folks to chat with on this subject so are there any others out there that have some Durbar sets hidden behind the WWII or Napoleonics?

Dave

 

[jrsteel]

Dave I collect some of the Britains Durbar and Indian Army sets. I'm not trying to get a complete collection of them but I love the way they look. They're so colorful. Yesterday I picked up a beautiful set of The 13th Duke Of Connaught's Lancers, late 1940's production. It's an awesome set.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Jr

Did you get the set that I saw on ebay or was it from the London Bridge Store? I have been watching some really great sets of older Britains lately and would love to know if they were as nice as described. Since my focus is on the new series I have been avoiding the old sets mainly due to cost considerations.

Post some pictures if you can.

Dave

 

[jrsteel]

Dave ,yes I got that set from ebay. I can't believe what great shape they're in. You would never think they were 50-60 years old. I only paid $85 for them which is probably half of what they're worth. If you find sets without the box, they're a lot more affordable. Some day I'll try and post pictures. Have you or Pat ever seen the Tradition or William Hocker Durbar sets? Tradition has some Indian Army sets and Wm Hocker has a pretty extensive Durbar collection. I have some Napoleonic Tradition figures. They're nice but definitely chunkier than Britains. I've only seen pictures of Wm Hocker.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Jr,

Thats cool I'm happy those guys went to a good home. You can get boxes on auctions so keep your eyes open and who knows maybe you'll find the right box for them

I have seen the Hocker Durbars sets in photos they are really great but are based on the 1877 Durbar. They can be used in Durbar displays but you have to know the uniforms and equipment. I have also seen some Tradition Sets but I only have some of their Napoleonic offerings. I do have a single figure of an Indian Army Lancer that may well be one of theirs but its still not identified.

I think we have someone who is better qualified to chat about Hocker sets in Wadepat so I am sure when he reads this he'll have some good insight on their qualities etc.

I am glad you have jumped in here to chat about these sets.

All the Best!

Dave

 

[wadepat]

Hi Dave and Jr.,

Better qualified to chat about Hocker sets? Not on your life! I own a few Hocker sets, none of which are Durbar figures. I wish I had some though.

What I can say about the Hocker sets I own is that they are truly 54mm and they are crafted in the tradition of older W. Britains figures. The painting is excellent and the colors are vibrant. While I am assuming that his Durbar sets are similar in quality to the sets I own and to the other Hocker sets I have seen, I have never had the opportunity to view his Durbar sets closely. Judging from the Hocker figures I do own, I would conclude that his Durbar sets would blend nicely with the Britains and Marlborough sets in terms of size and height.

I have met and visited with William Hocker and I think his work is clearly an extension of his personality. Mr. Hocker is quietly unassuming and reserved, but as you visit with him, he exhibits a strong sense of personal competence, great confidence, and a deep affection for toy soldiers. He speaks with a twinkle in his eyes, a smile on his face, and chuckle in his voice. He is truly a charming man. And,...I think his figures/sets project the same image. In my opinion, his work is exceptional and extremely charming. He captures his personal charm in the figures he produces.

I have been fortunate to have developed a small connection with a larger Hocker collector community. Mr. Hocker has a large number of fans, none of whom seem to participate on the Treefrog forum. It is through my connection that I have been able to add a few Hocker sets to my collection at a competitive price, but please do not confuse the word "competitive" with the word "cheap!" Mr. Hocker has never retired any of his figures/sets and the pristine sets that collectors sell to one another usually carry a price tag that is not very distant from present retail.

I am presently looking for some Hocker Durbar sets for a competitive price, but so far, I have not succeeded in obtaining any. I hope to be able to do so in the not too distant future. If I succeed, I will share my impressions with you.

Dave: After all the help you have provided me concerning collecting Delhi Durbar figures, I can't believe you could possibly conclude that I am better qualified to discuss Hocker Durbar figures! That's really a laugh!

Jr.: Listen to Dave's comments and assessments. He knows gobs more about this topic than do I!

However, if the two of you don't mind, I want to listen and learn from you both, and from all other interested Durbar collectors who join this discussion!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat