Richard Courtney $2,500 (1 Viewer)

Cardigan600

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Yo Troopers, how can you justify a price like this $2,500 for this model. OK I have never heard of him its a 1936 model no box. OTS auctions have a few coming up in there next auction and they are pricey opening bids, but I fail to see how they ask this for these models. I mean its not a work of art just an ordinary 54mm type soldier. Put it next to one of my Chas Stadden mounted and its a piece of junk. So come on you more experienced collectors tell me whats point I am missing with these models, I dont see it:confused:.
Bernard.

Talking whats the point I am missing, think this guy is missing his point lol.
 

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I know Courtenay command hefty sums of money, but I am not sure why. I think they are quite rare. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder I guess Bernard as I wouldn't give you a tenner for a Van Gogh either.
 
Were they associated with, or owned by Churchill or somebody? That's the only reason for prices this high, in MNSHO.
Mike
 
Courtenay figures are eagerly sought-after, and for the time, the sculpting and painting are exquisite. But unless that's a really rare piece, I'm not sure it's worth $2500, either. I'll look in O'Brien's books tonight when I get home, and see if I can find the figure.

Maybe because it's a mounted figure, it commanded the high price; I don't think I've ever seen a Courtenay mounted figure, though that's not to say there are none.

From the pic, that one looks a little worn, too.

Didn't Freddy Ping pick up Courtenay's molds, when Richard passed away? I'll have to check on that, too.

Prost!
Brad
 
Courtenay figures are eagerly sought-after, and for the time, the sculpting and painting are exquisite. But unless that's a really rare piece, I'm not sure it's worth $2500, either. I'll look in O'Brien's books tonight when I get home, and see if I can find the figure.

Maybe because it's a mounted figure, it commanded the high price; I don't think I've ever seen a Courtenay mounted figure, though that's not to say there are none.

From the pic, that one looks a little worn, too.

Didn't Freddy Ping pick up Courtenay's molds, when Richard passed away? I'll have to check on that, too.

Prost!
Brad

Yo Brad, I am going to spec savers tomorrow, defo something wrong with my eyesight. The Sculpting & painting are Equisite:confused: they look like bobby horses to me off a merry go round. There are 16 in OTS auctions, six of which are mounted. If Norman offered them to me just for the postage, it would be to much, wouldn't put one in my cabinet. As Scott says beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if they are beautiful, will defo have to have another look at the wife:eek: lol.
Bernard.
 
Yo Troopers, how can you justify a price like this $2,500 for this model. OK I have never heard of him its a 1936 model no box. OTS auctions have a few coming up in there next auction and they are pricey opening bids, but I fail to see how they ask this for these models. I mean its not a work of art just an ordinary 54mm type soldier. Put it next to one of my Chas Stadden mounted and its a piece of junk. So come on you more experienced collectors tell me whats point I am missing with these models, I dont see it:confused:.
Bernard.

Bernard,
As much as human nature can be understood (why somebody pays a price that seems unreasonable to most logically thinking people), the purchase price of any thing is the most anyone person is willing to pay and the seller is willing to accept.

Now if it were me and someone offered me $2,500 for this model, I would ship it free and thank them very much for their purchase.

Remember, EBay has sold toast that is shaped like the head of Christ. There is currently a rock in the shape of the "hand of god" for sale. What exactly does the hand of god look like anyway? And, whose the expert to determine the likeness, in a sane world?
 
Yo Michael, nobody has paid the price yet, but the 16 in OTS auctions are all opening bids of $300 to $400 so someone is going to pay a lot for them. I know you get some weird things in auction but people are weird lol. Remember an Elvis auction and one item was a cigar butt end, saying Elvis had smoked it, of course some bozo bought it for good money, but think he will have one hell of a job proving it lol.
Bernard.
 
While watching ebay's Toy Soldier Section on a regular base I often asked myself what makes buyers go for an item like that?
Every now and then I saw Courtenay Knights offered (all foot figures though) and each and every one went at least for a 3-digit number.
Would not have spent a penny for them myself.
I guess it is the "exclusivenes" of the item. Courtenay Knights were not mass produced and probably back then they were state of the art.
Maybe, if you do have a collection of old Toy Soldiers, grown through decades, or you got some pieces from parents, grandparents, that you cherish and you see a chance to add to this particular collection, you go for it.
Sometimes at a Toy Soldier show I do see old sets on dealer's tables with figures that are not sculpted well to today's standards and have a lot of paint chipped off but demand a relatively high price.
Those are antique items and there certainly is a clientel for them.
 
AH ,That is a beautiful figure ,with respect,I disagree so far as to say,that that IS a work of art. Additionally I believe "for the time ,the sculpting and painting are exquisite" may prove true if amended to "for all time...".
The mounted Courtenay,seem to require either the intimation or actualisation of auld mortality to appear. Several sold on eBay in '08,I do not recall exact finishes-but certainly to me money is a shabby thing alongside a Courtenay.Regretably my state of shabbiness has failed to win me so much as a Dismounted Knight.
I mind a time not so very long ago,when weird was not so much what a person is as what a person did or experienced.
Thank You for the photo.Best,John
 
Yo Brad, I am going to spec savers tomorrow, defo something wrong with my eyesight. The Sculpting & painting are Equisite:confused: they look like bobby horses to me off a merry go round. There are 16 in OTS auctions, six of which are mounted. If Norman offered them to me just for the postage, it would be to much, wouldn't put one in my cabinet. As Scott says beauty is in the eye of the beholder, and if they are beautiful, will defo have to have another look at the wife:eek: lol.
Bernard.

I stand by my statement. For his time, the casting and the quality of his painting were far beyond anything anyone else was doing at the time (eg, Britains in the UK, Heyde in Germany),

Bob Hornung contributed the article on Courtenay for Richard O'Brien's "Collecting Toy Soldiers," and noted the following details:

Richard Courtenay, born in England in 1892, began making toy soldiers in 1918. However, the figures commonly associated with him weren't produced until 1928.

...Courtenay figures are known for their superb animation and exquisite painting. (heh-I must have remembered the specific choice of words from the last time I read O'Brien-Brad) From the start they were painted with the heraldry of actual knights of the 'Hundred Years War' period. Courtenay's painting continued to improved, so that by the late 1940s and the 1950s he was producing true works of art. Both heraldry and faces were executed with exceptional detail." (O'Brien, "Collecting Toy Soldiers", 2nd edition, p. 607)​

Hornung wrote that after Courtenay's death in 1963, miniaturist Freddy Ping inherited the molds and continued producing the figures until he passed in 1977. In 1978, Peter Greenhill acquired the molds and he continued the line. Hornung noted that the Courtenay-Greenhill figures are of the same quality as the originals.

The article also explains that Courtenay's figures were copied. "In fact, a company in New York copied nearly all of his work in the 1950s. Quality is generally very poor on these" (O'Brien, op cit).

On prices, Hornung wrote that foot figures ranged from $100 to $300 in mint condition, and mounted figures from $200 to $500, in mint condition. "Copies generally have little value" (O'Brien, op cit).

The article included a couple dozen pictures of foot and mounted figures. There is a picture of a mounted figure mounted on the same horse casting as the one in the auction pic you provided, though the specific heraldry is not depicted.

Personally, I'd be concerned about the provenance of the figures, and their authenticity, and I think $2500 is steep. But on the other hand, I think we've all seen how the auction adrenalin starts to flow (we've probably all experienced it, firsthand :D ), so it's not too surprising.
 
Yo Brad, nice article and very informative, but sorry mate to me they are poor it must just be a fad thing were people start a crazy for them and the sheep follow to the slaughter. Just had a look at the 16 in OTS auction cannot see anything of beauty. The horses are not a patch on the Old Britains models and they were made for kids, at least they look like horses. If you saw Chas Staddens Knights you would freak out, only three were issued as singles from the Tower of London Chess Set, but they are a thing of excellence. The only reason I collected the Old Britains sets was for their Cavalry Regiments but in all honesty I couldn't call them a thing of beauty, they are old and in good condition with the box they fetch good money. Now when I look at Chas Stadden models they cannot be improved on they are just perfect, its like looking at real people, the uniforms are totally correct and the painting is superb, when you consider they used mostly out painters.
So on this one bud we will have to agree to disagree.
Bernard.
 
Most of the popularity of Courtenay's figures is because they were the first of the "model" soldiers as opposed to toys. As such they have a position in the history of models and are sought after for that reason.
 
Yo Troopers, how can you justify a price like this $2,500 for this model. OK I have never heard of him its a 1936 model no box. OTS auctions have a few coming up in there next auction and they are pricey opening bids, but I fail to see how they ask this for these models. I mean its not a work of art just an ordinary 54mm type soldier. Put it next to one of my Chas Stadden mounted and its a piece of junk. So come on you more experienced collectors tell me whats point I am missing with these models, I dont see it:confused:.
Bernard.

Talking whats the point I am missing, think this guy is missing his point lol.

I'm sorry to disagree Bernard, this is a very beautiful knight!
:cool::cool:

I can think of a hundred better things to do with $2,500 however.
:D

Cheers...

Uthred
 
Here's a bump, I just saw what appears to be this same figure up for sale at eBay, as a "Buy It Now" item:

http://cgi.ebay.com/VERY-RARE-VINTA...s=66:3|65:1|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:100

The same seller has some more Courtenay figures up, probably the ones you showed us, originally, Bernard:

Another moutned knight (the Black Prince), at $2500:

http://cgi.ebay.com/VERY-RARE-VINTA...s=66:3|65:1|39:1|240:1318|301:1|293:1|294:100

Lady Jane Grey and executioner, at $1500:

http://cgi.ebay.com/VERY-RARE-VINTA...s=66:3|65:1|39:1|240:1318|301:0|293:1|294:100

King Jean II of France, at $525:

http://cgi.ebay.com/EXTREMELY-RARE-...s=66:3|65:1|39:1|240:1318|301:0|293:1|294:100

and a group of 5 foot figures, at $2800:

http://cgi.ebay.com/5-EXTREMELY-RAR...s=66:3|65:1|39:1|240:1318|301:0|293:1|294:100

I don't mean to rekindle the debate about the merits of Courtenay figures, but to underscore that these are way overpriced, even if you like Courtenay. I mean, the King Jean figure is overpriced at $525, no matter how rare it might be, when you consider that the paint on the face is almost completely gone.

I'm going to bookmark these, just to see if anyone actually buys them at the asking price.

Prost!
Brad
 
Hi All,

There is a great book detailing Courtenay and Ping figures produced by Peter Greenhill. The title is Heraldic Miniature Knights. Courtenay knights are considered to be masterpieces but the book does showcase a large number of fakes.

http://www.remsonco.com/books.htm


Rgds Victor
 
Hi All,

There is a great book detailing Courtenay and Ping figures produced by Peter Greenhill. The title is Heraldic Miniature Knights. Courtenay knights are considered to be masterpieces but the book does showcase a large number of fakes.

http://www.remsonco.com/books.htm


Rgds Victor
Another example of beauty and eyes I suppose.;):D I must have the wrong eyes for this beauty.:)
 
Those auctions are still out there, by the way, and it doesn't look like the seller's gotten any nibbles.
 
BUMP!

Those auctions are still out there, some have had offers, others have not. The seller is holding out, but unfortunately, we can't follow along, since eBay hides the amounts. But I think it's going to be a lonnnnnggggg time before he gets what he's asking for any of these, Courtenay or no. The prices are just too d*mned high.
 
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Agree with you there, Brad, Courtenay have their place in the history of model/toy soldiers being possibly the first to put so much detail into the painting but as such only have an antique value. Personally I think he made a typo and put an extra O on the price.
 
Richard Courtenay was a pioneer. All of what we consider to be connoisseur figures today are directly attributed to him. There is a uniqueness and elegance to his figures noone has really been able to recapture.

The earlier stuff, which these figures pretty much are, are far less interesting than the later figures but those are all in Greenhills books so you all can check them out.

When buying these figures, you must absolutely be careful and try to get hold of Peter Greenhill to authenticate them.

There was a shop in NYC (not my dads shop) who had a guy "working" there who would buy Courtenay-Pings and "recondition" them as original Courtenays, selling them at those prices.

If you are considering purchasing any or want to hear one heck of a crazy story then PM me.

Its the greatest swindle/drama of the toy soldier world that very few know about.
 

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