Richard the Lionhearted (1 Viewer)

desert fox

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If Andy produces King Richard for the CC , please give him an action pose. I noticed that most of the CC figures are static poses. However the warrior who rode out alone & challenged Salahadin`s entire army deserves to be cast doing what he did best , fighting , slashing etc. (& yes I haven`t forgotten astute logistical planning) !! BTW that would be the clincher for my joining the club , thanks. So what do you say Andy ??
 
How about doing his heraldry correctly? I see him always painted with three lions, but that was after his return from the Holy Land. Here are some things from www.earlyblazon.com that should be considered when Richard I is painted.

According to a chronicler describing Richard in Cyprus in 1191:
"The king leapt on to his horse, and seated himself on a saddle sparkling with gold, glittering red and with many other colours gleaming between. On the rear of the saddle a pair of snarling little golden lions faced each other, each holding one forepaw stretched out towards the other as if to tear each other to pieces. The king also wore golden spurs on his feet. He wore a tunic of rose samite with a cloak over it; the cloak had the shapes of little half moons lined out on it, glowing white in solid silver, and shining orbs like suns scattered densely."
Source : Itenerarium Peregrinorum et Gesta Regis Ricardi - book 2, chapter 36, translated from Latin into English by Helen J. Nicholson.

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How about doing his heraldry correctly? I see him always painted with three lions, but that was after his return from the Holy Land. Here are some things from www.earlyblazon.com that should be considered when Richard I is painted.

According to a chronicler describing Richard in Cyprus in 1191:
"The king leapt on to his horse, and seated himself on a saddle sparkling with gold, glittering red and with many other colours gleaming between. On the rear of the saddle a pair of snarling little golden lions faced each other, each holding one forepaw stretched out towards the other as if to tear each other to pieces. The king also wore golden spurs on his feet. He wore a tunic of rose samite with a cloak over it; the cloak had the shapes of little half moons lined out on it, glowing white in solid silver, and shining orbs like suns scattered densely."
Source : Itenerarium Peregrinorum et Gesta Regis Ricardi - book 2, chapter 36, translated from Latin into English by Helen J. Nicholson.

View attachment 6689

Your research is impeccable and I appreciate the knowledge you are sharing with us. Thanks.
 
Please, this is just an observation so don’t let us start off on some PC tangent that is not what I want to do. I am just starting an adult level conversation.

I find it interesting that we have condemned Nazi organizations (LAH, Waffen SS, etc.) and their associated figures and vehicles and yet we don’t hold the same standard to Richard I of England. This tread is an attempt to have him portrayed as a figurine.

As a matter of record, Richard I of England was not the man commonly shown in contemporary movies as the “Hero.” He was a promoter of anti-semitic violence and, if judged by today’s standards, a war ciminal, a mass murderer, and a thief. His record is one more of failure than it is a record of success. Yet, history has a strange twist in perpetuating the myth that Richard was more like the character that Kevin Cosner, Sean Connery or Rex Harrison played. We see him thorough false eyes.

When he took Acre, he executed his Muslim prisoners as he was not willing to travel with them (giving them food and water, etc.). He could just as easily taken their weapons and sent them on their way. Yes he may have had to fight them another day. But to behead them for convience is a war crime. That is just one example of his record. It is much more disturbing, if we judge him by today’s morality and standards.

Yet, is the burning of individuals acceptable just because he did it hundreds of years ago. Don’t the people who were burnt suffer as much then as they would today? I don’t currently collect the Medieval period so I do not plan to purchase such a figure if it was available. Yet, if I were to collect that period, I would buy a Richard the Lion Hearted figurine. Am I hypocritical. No, I am just opening up a conversation based on some comments on previous figures that are available.
 
Ahhhhhhhhhh The Good Ole Days - when you could lop off the heads of a few POWs and nobody would care. :eek:
 
Please, this is just an observation so don’t let us start off on some PC tangent that is not what I want to do. I am just starting an adult level conversation.

I find it interesting that we have condemned Nazi organizations (LAH, Waffen SS, etc.) and their associated figures and vehicles and yet we don’t hold the same standard to Richard I of England. This tread is an attempt to have him portrayed as a figurine.

As a matter of record, Richard I of England was not the man commonly shown in contemporary movies as the “Hero.” He was a promoter of anti-semitic violence and, if judged by today’s standards, a war ciminal, a mass murderer, and a thief. His record is one more of failure than it is a record of success. Yet, history has a strange twist in perpetuating the myth that Richard was more like the character that Kevin Cosner, Sean Connery or Rex Harrison played. We see him thorough false eyes.

When he took Acre, he executed his Muslim prisoners as he was not willing to travel with them (giving them food and water, etc.). He could just as easily taken their weapons and sent them on their way. Yes he may have had to fight them another day. But to behead them for convience is a war crime. That is just one example of his record. It is much more disturbing, if we judge him by today’s morality and standards.

Yet, is the burning of individuals acceptable just because he did it hundreds of years ago. Don’t the people who were burnt suffer as much then as they would today? I don’t currently collect the Medieval period so I do not plan to purchase such a figure if it was available. Yet, if I were to collect that period, I would buy a Richard the Lion Hearted figurine. Am I hypocritical. No, I am just opening up a conversation based on some comments on previous figures that are available.

You are certainly correct that by todays standards Richard was a war criminal. So for that matter was Julius Ceasar, Alexander the Great, Ghngis Khan, Atilla the Hun, the leader of the Vandals, El Cid, and Saladin. The point is, those leaders of the past were not leaders of modern allegedly Christian nations, who were signatories of the Geneva Convention.

Heck, by todays standards William Tecumsah Sherman, who, outraged by the use of landmines, forced confederate prisoners to march in front of his men and clear mines, and executed a Confederate Prisoner in retailiation for the Southerner's executions of his foragers during the march to the sea, was also a War Criminal. I don't know that it is appropriate to judge a person from an entirely different generation by 20th and 21st Century standards.

That being said, I always thought it was funny Richard was always portrayed as such a great king, and his brother John as such a buffoon, when by every historical account I have read Richard was an absoplute disaster who bankrupted England, and John was a much better king for the average englishman.
 
You are certainly correct that by todays standards Richard was a war criminal. So for that matter was Julius Ceasar, Alexander the Great, Ghngis Khan, Atilla the Hun, the leader of the Vandals, El Cid, and Saladin. The point is, those leaders of the past were not leaders of modern allegedly Christian nations, who were signatories of the Geneva Convention.



That being said, I always thought it was funny Richard was always portrayed as such a great king, and his brother John as such a buffoon, when by every historical account I have read Richard was an absoplute disaster who bankrupted England, and John was a much better king for the average englishman.

Kind of funny how that goes down. It goes to show how fiction and the pen is mightier than the sword. Now we know what that means .
 
Hey guys,

Here are some things to consider about Richard I.

Some consider Richard I not capturing Jerusalem as a failure. It was the goal of the 3rd Crusade to take Jerusalem back from the Muslims. From a religious perspective, it was a failure, but Richard knew that in the long term, Jerusalem could not be held. Take for instance the 1st Crusade. After the capture of Jerusalem in 1099 and the destruction of the Muslim army at Ascalon, the crusaders considered their pilgrim vows as completed and returned home. It left Godfrey approximately three hundred knights and two thousand footmen to protect the entire Latin Kingdom! The same situation would arise if Richard took Jerusalem. The crusaders would leave. Also, being so far from the coast, with a vulnerable supply line, the city would not hold. Consider instead what the situation of the Christians was at the time of his arrival in the Levant. The Christian forces barely had a foothold left in the Holy Land. Richard’s actions reversed most of Saladin’s gains. The Christians now held the coastal territory from Tyre to Jaffa. Pilgrims could now travel in the Levant and could even visit the holy places of Jerusalem. The taking of Cyprus was a huge strategic victory and played a very important role in the four centuries to come. Because of Richard, the Christian forces were able to maintain their presence in the holy land for another 100 years.

We have to remember first that he lived in the 12th Century. Things such as murder were as wrong then as they are now, but we need to realize that men in that time lived to a much different standard than we do today. The killing of the Muslim captives at Acre is just a continuation of many such executions of prisoners. At the Battle of Hattin for example, Saladin waited two days before he executed the members of the military orders and had those executions carried out by men who had no experience in using a quick and efficient method. Look at what Zengi did when he captured the city of Edessa which spurred the call to Crusade. (lead to the 2nd Crusade) Though these were horrible deeds from a moral perspective and very disgusting today in our modern view, these actions were not uncommon in this era. Saladin in turn killed every Christian captive from August 28th to September 10th in reprisal for the executions at Acre. Most of these things you can look up for yourself on Wikipedia on the Saladin article. I helped write a lot of it.

For roughly 400 years after the death of Richard I, British historians praised Richard in his reign. (This does not include those in a propaganda war against Richard from various other countries) Richard has since had many an English detractor. Many recent historians have questioned his reign of England. I recommend reading John Gillingham’s Richard I who writes on this matter to some degree. To keep this from being a very long post and since I am not an expert on anything, much less Richard’s domestic administration, I will include a quote from the book. According to Gillingham, in his opinion, the jury is still out on this subject since he cites many new charters which need to be examined and studied.
“If modern English historians have blamed him for neglecting his kingdom, this was not how contemporary commentators saw it. They praised him for going on crusade – though some, perhaps with the wisdom of hindsight, felt that he had been too generous to his brother John. If anything, they criticized him for too much government rather than too little. Those such as Ralph Coggeshall and Roger of Howden who lived through the heavy financial demands of the last years of Richard’s reign had a good reason to lament his “insatiable cupidity” and a country “reduced to poverty” by the oppression of judicial and forest eyres. Yet they acknowledged that the money was raised in order to fight wars in which the king had justice on his side – thus although the heavy demands he made on his subjects meant he was a flawed hero, they saw him none the less in a heroic light, just as Ambroise had done. Historians writing a little later and who had not had to pay Richard’s taxes found it even easier to see the hero.”

I believe another good barometer of Richard is the view his greatest adversaries had of him. The Muslims. As Gillingham states, they were not caught up in the internal power struggles of Europe and were therefore not “tainted” in their perspective. He was considered by the Muslims the leader of the crusade, as a great war leader, and a savvy politician and diplomat. On several occasions, Richard’s presence had such a profound effect on the Muslim army that Saladin struggled to keep effective control of his men. I recommend Beha Ed-Din’s book The Life of Saladin as a great view of Richard from the Muslim perspective. He was a very close friend of Saladin and was an eyewitness or in the know of all of Richards exploits.

I am much too sleepy to continue this for the evening. Maybe tomorrow.

Darrell
 
Hey guys,

Here are some things to consider about Richard I.

Some consider Richard I not capturing Jerusalem as a failure. It was the goal of the 3rd Crusade to take Jerusalem back from the Muslims. From a religious perspective, it was a failure, but Richard knew that in the long term, Jerusalem could not be held. Take for instance the 1st Crusade. After the capture of Jerusalem in 1099 and the destruction of the Muslim army at Ascalon, the crusaders considered their pilgrim vows as completed and returned home. It left Godfrey approximately three hundred knights and two thousand footmen to protect the entire Latin Kingdom! The same situation would arise if Richard took Jerusalem. The crusaders would leave. Also, being so far from the coast, with a vulnerable supply line, the city would not hold. Consider instead what the situation of the Christians was at the time of his arrival in the Levant. The Christian forces barely had a foothold left in the Holy Land. Richard’s actions reversed most of Saladin’s gains. The Christians now held the coastal territory from Tyre to Jaffa. Pilgrims could now travel in the Levant and could even visit the holy places of Jerusalem. The taking of Cyprus was a huge strategic victory and played a very important role in the four centuries to come. Because of Richard, the Christian forces were able to maintain their presence in the holy land for another 100 years.

We have to remember first that he lived in the 12th Century. Things such as murder were as wrong then as they are now, but we need to realize that men in that time lived to a much different standard than we do today. The killing of the Muslim captives at Acre is just a continuation of many such executions of prisoners. At the Battle of Hattin for example, Saladin waited two days before he executed the members of the military orders and had those executions carried out by men who had no experience in using a quick and efficient method. Look at what Zengi did when he captured the city of Edessa which spurred the call to Crusade. (lead to the 2nd Crusade) Though these were horrible deeds from a moral perspective and very disgusting today in our modern view, these actions were not uncommon in this era. Saladin in turn killed every Christian captive from August 28th to September 10th in reprisal for the executions at Acre. Most of these things you can look up for yourself on Wikipedia on the Saladin article. I helped write a lot of it.

For roughly 400 years after the death of Richard I, British historians praised Richard in his reign. (This does not include those in a propaganda war against Richard from various other countries) Richard has since had many an English detractor. Many recent historians have questioned his reign of England. I recommend reading John Gillingham’s Richard I who writes on this matter to some degree. To keep this from being a very long post and since I am not an expert on anything, much less Richard’s domestic administration, I will include a quote from the book. According to Gillingham, in his opinion, the jury is still out on this subject since he cites many new charters which need to be examined and studied.
“If modern English historians have blamed him for neglecting his kingdom, this was not how contemporary commentators saw it. They praised him for going on crusade – though some, perhaps with the wisdom of hindsight, felt that he had been too generous to his brother John. If anything, they criticized him for too much government rather than too little. Those such as Ralph Coggeshall and Roger of Howden who lived through the heavy financial demands of the last years of Richard’s reign had a good reason to lament his “insatiable cupidity” and a country “reduced to poverty” by the oppression of judicial and forest eyres. Yet they acknowledged that the money was raised in order to fight wars in which the king had justice on his side – thus although the heavy demands he made on his subjects meant he was a flawed hero, they saw him none the less in a heroic light, just as Ambroise had done. Historians writing a little later and who had not had to pay Richard’s taxes found it even easier to see the hero.”

I believe another good barometer of Richard is the view his greatest adversaries had of him. The Muslims. As Gillingham states, they were not caught up in the internal power struggles of Europe and were therefore not “tainted” in their perspective. He was considered by the Muslims the leader of the crusade, as a great war leader, and a savvy politician and diplomat. On several occasions, Richard’s presence had such a profound effect on the Muslim army that Saladin struggled to keep effective control of his men. I recommend Beha Ed-Din’s book The Life of Saladin as a great view of Richard from the Muslim perspective. He was a very close friend of Saladin and was an eyewitness or in the know of all of Richards exploits.

I am much too sleepy to continue this for the evening. Maybe tomorrow.

Darrell

Great post Darrell. So it would seem that Richard could be compared to the first President Bush. He did a fantastic job prosecuting a war in Iraq, but his domestic policy, which lead to a recession, cost him re-election and left him criticized by many contemporary commentators, despite the fact that the U.S. may never have fought a war as well and wisely.

You are obviously more up on this subject than I am, but I distinctly remember reading that Richard's crusade (and his resultant capture by the German's and ransom) all but bankrupted England, and led to rampant taxation. If that is the case, I can understand why some of the people who were forced to pay those taxes might not have been so impressed with his successes on crusade.
 
Yes, the 100,000 mark ransom was more than twice the total annual income of England. This sum was raised in England as well as outside of England. According to Gillingham, Richards generosity is what made his subjects willing to raise his ransom. I had not read that before until I read his book. He cites several reasons. I did read something very interesting today on page 277 that states that more revenue was raised from the Norman Exchange than the British Exchange during Richard's reign to pay for his wars and ransom. He cites the audits as evidence.

Back to Richard's appearance. We discussed his heraldry on this thread, but about Richard's personal appearance I have a couple of items. On page 266, Gillingham cites the following of Richard at his death. "This according to William of Newburgh (who probably never saw him), supported by the assertion of Ralph of Coggeshall (who almost certainly had) that when Richard was mortally wounded 'too much fat' made the surgeon's task difficult." Newburgh, Bk4, Ch. 5. Coggeshall, 95. Also, according to Gerald de Barri, who spoke of Richard's appearance in 1189, that Richard was 'above average height'. There is another account from Richard de Templo, which was written between 1217 and 1220. This was obviously after Richards death and after he had become a legend. At his coronation, it states;" He was tall, of elegant build; the color of his hair was between red and gold; his limbs were supple and straight. He had quite long arms which were particularly suited to drawing a sword and wielding it with great effect. His long legs matched the rest of his body." That might not be accurate at all since it was written so long after his death.
 
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