Scale - Whats going on??????? (2 Viewers)

[dog soldier]

i am starting this thread for discussion and hopefully some answers, not picking or choosing certain companies for "bashing" (sad that i even have to make the latter statement lol)

lets talk about them all!

well, seems to be of late that the scale of figures is becoming more discussed with some collectors and manufacturers,

i mean really, how hard is it to produce figures/vehicles in a proper scale format, there is no room for interpritation here, or is there?????

1/32 scale is just that, same with 1/30 and so forth, but yet we see some companies like K&C who makes WWII in 1/30 but other era's collectors say are more 1/32 scale, Collectors Showcase who say their scale is 1/32 but end up being 1/24, Conte who produces 1/32 scale but with their new SOS collectors are saying 1/30 or even larger, even read a couple posts about Britains newer stuff not quite up to 1/32 scale.

if scale is scale, measured in 54mm/60mm , assuming 54mm is 1/32 and 60mm is 1/30 than all scales from whichever company should be the same or compatible, no? or at least very very close to one another.

there seems to be really no standard or uniformatity with toy soldier manufacturers that they can all agree on.

if hot wheels and matchbox could do it with diecast, if kenner and hasbro can with dolls and figures, why can't these guy's?

do we all have to know the sculpting, molding and manufacturing end of things to be able to better understand?

i have heard the explanations from some "well in real life we are not all the same size, so why should it be any different in the toy soldier world"

should that really apply to modeling and toy soldiers?

displays and diorama's are supposed to be eye catching, dramatic, with the figures all relatively close in scale this would make much more cense, or should it be more true to life?

i hope to see some manufacturers post here to tell their side of things.

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Dog Soldier,

The issue of scale has been a big one recently and off and on over the years.
The scale for Britains is 54mm but the test is if this is to the eyes as some say or to the top of the head gear. I collect mainly Britains and for the most part the scale of their figures hasnt changd too much over the course of their history. They are also compatible with Marlborough, Blenheim, Shamus Wades Figures and Ducal, Trophy and a few other companies. The general scale of Britains Mounted figures is 90 mm but its still a 54mm soldier sitting on the horse that makes it 90mm. The dismounted Troopers are usually 54mm.

As for the scale of King and Country I cant speak to that since I dont own any but they have been generally described to me as 60mm however they did make 54mm when they first hit the market. However Louis or Brad probably need to speak to their scale.

I think the big issue would be one of standardization but who is to say what the standard is and why should anyone follow the guidelines of another company. I for one like the 54mm so the figures I display all generally look the same size, but thats just me some guys probably dont care and other are probably really nuts over having the proper scale.

I imagine this thread will generate as many answers as there are collectors.

All the best

Dave

 

[modwalls]

Hey Dogsoldier, scales are never going to be perfect. No company is ever going to please everybody. I love my old Marx and Airfix guys, but I will not use them with my Conte or TSSD. That is just me, some will say put the smaller in the back for distance. The thing with toy soldiering and scale to me is, buy what you like, enjoy what you get. If it does not meet your standards, send it back. The fact we now have all these new toy soldier companies making cooler more accurate soldiers, is great. If a company makes a soldier a little bigger than the others, big deal. As long as the rest of them look more to scale, send the bigger one back. Some would say, why didn't he make the gun smaller in his hands? Then the people would say, they are disproportionate. Look at the FOV soldiers, big hands little weapons. Tall upper bods, small lower bods. Big deal don't buy them. To quote Rick Nelson from his song Garden Party, "Can't please everyone, so you got to please yourself ". So in my own opinion, scale is only an issue, to each independent collector. There is nothing wrong with people getting upset about not getting what they thought. There is always an alternative, send it back. Mike.

 

[Big Miller Bro]

well I know more about the miniature market than toy soldiers but I'd imagine the reasoning is the same:

Unless working from standardized dollies different sculptors will produce different sized sculpts- even the same sculptor may unconsciously vary the scale otherwise. Heck so many sculptors fight with each other over 'proper' anatomy that they forget that average is actually atypical since most people vary from average.

People tend to prefer all their figures from various companies match- but companies prefer you only buy from them and would rather you not buy any of the competitions stuff lol. Some companies in the gaming world even tell you in the rule book that you cant play their game in your own home using other companies figures.

What height is average- keeping in mind that average human height has varied greatly in human history, should your 1750s redcoat be half a foot shorter than a Finnish WWII soldier?

Personally I use everything from 40mm-60mm as if 54mm were 6ft- so that gives me a rough range of 4 feet to 6 foot 4 or so.

 

[plasmapulse]

From what I read in the past, K&C started to make 60mm figures because they could have more detail in the sculpt and were easier to paint to a collectors standard by the factory. K&C is so popular, other must have followed them to tag along; people having large K&C collections would like to supplement them with other 60mm figures.

I'm more of a true 54mm scale type of person. 54 mm sculpts have been around for ages and most companies get it right (there is always a minor difference). When scale is really off, it's meant to be off like K&C.

 

[Louis Badolato]

K&C started out in 54mm. Their figures started getting a bit larger around 1994 or so, and they formally changed to 60mm around 1996. The WWII stuff in 60mm grew so popular, certain other companies started doing WWII in 60mm as well. Then K&C started to spread its focus from almost exclusively WWII, by opening ranges on the Civil War in 60mm (a flop), the American Revolution (slow at first, but really taking off now) and Napoleonics. But these figures weren't compatible with the majority of toy soldiers available for this period (54mm) so I think Andy started to scale them down from 1:30 to 1:31 and is not formally making several ranges in 1:32. I think it is a business decision to permit his figures to fit better into existing collections of 54mm figures in these ranges. However, WWII remains in 60mm (but some of the new figures vary in size on the slightly smaller side, Andy explains because poeple vary in height in real life, but cynics might believe so that K&C will work with 54mm collections as well). As Andy, like myself, is not the tallest person, I tend to believe Andy's explanation about varying heights amongst humans - he wants some of his guys to be under 6 foot like himself.

 

[OldDragon]

K&C started out ... so I think Andy started to scale them down from 1:30 to 1:31 and is now formally making several ranges in 1:32. I think it is a business decision ...

Louis

Can you tell which of the K&C series are formally in 1:32. The Crusaders is one for sure. The new ACW is likely 1:32.

The reason I ask is because I do like everything with cavalry generally ... but I also like my collection to be compatible. For now I collect K&C's Napoleonics ... and I pray they dont go 1:32.

I am much tempted by the new ACW and American Revolution but am hesitant not knowing their size.

I order online from the States ... and its not practical for me to return items I am not happy with ... half way across the world.

OldDragon

 

[Louis Badolato]

Olddragon,

I believe that the Crusaders, WWI and the Civil War will all be 1:32. I know WWII will remain 1:30. As to the rest I don't collect either Napoleonic of American Revolution, so I don't know.

 

[OldDragon]

Louis

Thanks for the heads up ....

I guess I will jus have to drop by HK and see Andy and his little kingdom in the flesh.

OLdDragon

 

[plasmapulse]

K&C started out in 54mm. Their figures started getting a bit larger around 1994 or so, and they formally changed to 60mm around 1996. The WWII stuff in 60mm grew so popular, certain other companies started doing WWII in 60mm as well. Then K&C started to spread its focus from almost exclusively WWII, by opening ranges on the Civil War in 60mm (a flop), the American Revolution (slow at first, but really taking off now) and Napoleonics. But these figures weren't compatible with the majority of toy soldiers available for this period (54mm) so I think Andy started to scale them down from 1:30 to 1:31 and is not formally making several ranges in 1:32. I think it is a business decision to permit his figures to fit better into existing collections of 54mm figures in these ranges. However, WWII remains in 60mm (but some of the new figures vary in size on the slightly smaller side, Andy explains because poeple vary in height in real life, but cynics might believe so that K&C will work with 54mm collections as well). As Andy, like myself, is not the tallest person, I tend to believe Andy's explanation about varying heights amongst humans - he wants some of his guys to be under 6 foot like himself.

Thanks for the explanation.
I'm one of those cynics BTW when it comes to scaling figures to match other manufacturers sizes which is smart from K&C and very useful to collectors.
I love their figures but never understood the scalecreep to 60mm.
I didn't knew they were scaling some stuff down recently.

 

[binder001]

I agree it can be frustrating. Right now, just looking at my US WW2 stuff I have three major scales; King and Country (60-ish mm size), "Conte-scale" (aka "Large 54mm") and "true" 1/32nd. Obviously K&C stand alone in their size (waiting to see what an Honour Bound Sherman will cost). The Conte stuff and TSSD work well together, but no one has produced a vehicle that properly scales out to their size.

I think the problem started with the variability of "54mm". Obviously there is a lot of leeway in scaling out a figure based on an average height. "True" 1/32nd has a little more consistency as you are talking about a scale size reduction. That's why it's fairly easy to mix vehicles from 21C, FoV, Airfix models, Monogram models, etc., and many of those companies figures look OK together.

Obviously we aren't going to change all the toy soldier manufacturers, so I guess we just have to learn to live with whatever scale variation doesn't bother us, or to segregate the figures and vehicles by their size. The last one is my personal approach because I not only collect "toy" soldiers but I have models in many different scales, too.

Gary

 

[King & Country]

Hi Guys,

Interesting thread started by “DogSoldier”...for the record, as my good friend Louis said, K&C started out all those years ago in basically 54mm same as everyone else. Around the mid 1990’s as we really began to develop our own style I asked my sculptors at that time to keep adding more detail. Believe it or not our “master figures” at that point were being carved out of solid resin. Strong yes...flexible no.

Simultaneously thanks to our “ARNHEM’44” series K&C was getting more noticed and more collected. Our figures were, by now, closer to 60mm than traditional 54mm.

Collectors and a growing band of K&C dealers did not seem to mind...in fact many of them seemed to prefer the more “robust” figures over some of the slightly undernourished 54’s.

As K&C developed and we set up our own new team of sculptors in China the quality kept improving. One big reason apart from natural talent was that the new team sculpted in clay! Which was much more flexible and lent itself to even more detail. By this time our merry band of brothers (me, K&C and our collectors) much preferred the general 60mm (1:30 scale) size. And as far as WW2 is concerned K&C was seen by many as in the forefront of that particular movement we’ve stuck with that scale. I can also firmly state that we have no intention to alter that either.

Re our other series...Napoleonic...Rev. War...World War One...Civil War. To be honest I still think they are closer to 1:30 than 1:32 so 1:31 might be about right. But make up your own mind. All companies, K&C included, have slight variations in scale because we all use different sculptors and factories in China who all have slightly different methods of production.

At the end of the day choose what you like...regardless of scale...if you like it — buy it...if you don’t — that’s OK too!

I personally collect Napoleon’s Imperial Guard...I have a collection of all shapes, sizes and scales and...I love ‘em all.

Best wishes and...happy collecting!

Andy C.

 

[maddadicus]

Dear Andy, I know that most of my concern is the consistency in scale by K/C, within the different ranges.....ie The varied scale of some of your vehicles...If another mfg. vehicle fits in, I consider that a bonus to my collection, but when I recieve a 1/32 K/C tank that is dwarfed by K/C models which are more closer to the 1/30 template, that distresses me a little bit....I know that you have mentioned technical issues that have caused this varience in the past. Hopefully, this can be fixed easily so that all future releases are scaled correctly..........Thanks, Michael

 

[dog soldier]

Ecellent! glad to see some participation, thanks mod and dm for opinions, and thank you K&C for your take on things.

I never meant to suggest that all companies should get together and produce everything in the same size,

between different era's size does not really matter, i mean not many of us would put our Napoleonics against a divison of WWII Germans, the Naps would get "slaughtered" (thats for you Capitol) and look pretty silly anyway

Andy (K&C) did touch upon this in his post that there will be slight variations within scale due to sculpting and production, that is most understandable to have slight variations.

the general statements of "collect what we like" "buy what we like" are good ones but let me try to be a bit more specific of what i was after,

lets take the 1/72 manufacturers, and there are alot of them, if you compare the vast majority (probably like 99% of them), place all those little figures side by side, you will not see any major glaring differences within the 1/72 scale.

now when we get to the 1/32 and 1/30 scales there seems to be differing opinions on what exactly 1/32 and 1/30 actually is, these are two different scales so lets not compare 1/32 to 1/30 but each one to its own.

between the manufacturers is it all left up to interpritation of what SCALE is in their own eyes, if we take 1/32 scale (just for simplicity sake),

Britains 1/32
Conte 1/32
Colectors Showcase 54mm which is 1/32 Civil War

K&C 1/30
Patriot 1/30

i know there are more companies but just can't think right now,

now, taking into consideration the whole sculpting/sculptor/material/manufacturing differences, who has the accurate scale, which one company if any of them is correct? there must be a right or wrong answer if "made to scale"

companies can make whatever they want in whatever size they want, thats fine, collectors will ultimately choose what they want to buy.

til next time