September 11th (1 Viewer)

[Louis Badolato]

Louis, you can't think of it as the terrorist won! This is just one battle in a long war. I agree they "caught us with our pants down" and certain things did change since Sept. 11th, however what country doesn't adapt, doesn't make changes when their national security is threatened. For one to say that the terrorist would hopefully meet 100+ angry vengeful Americans on a commuter flight is one thing but in actuallity it would never happen. I would love to believe that most people would fight rather then standby and watch the events as they unfold but you have to keep in mind that these flights consist of woman, children and alot of men who follow the old mind set of "Flight before fight". It was a rough day to say the least alot of good people died and should never ever be forgotten as long as this nation stands, but never give the terrorist the benefit of the doubt and say they won. Because if you think that, then not only have we lost the battle but the war as well. "God bless the USA"

If you consider accomplishing their goal of destroying our freedom winning, they won. I don't even recognize this country as the country I grew up in. I can't even walk into a courthouse where I have done work for 16 years, and know all the court personnel, without passing through a metal detector. The government can, without any court order, bug my calls, perform surveillance on me, and, if they decided that I "posed a threat" or had connections to terrorists, could lock me up in a jail outside of the United States without a trial, and torture me (enhanced interrogation techniques my butt). This country is a heck of a lot more like a middle eastern dictatorship then the Western Democracy I grew up in, because of the fear that attack instilled in the voting base.

However, I have to disagree with your "flight before fight" analysis on passenger planes after 9-11. I don't care if the flight were all elderly, knowing what we now know about what the terrorists intend, I don't think there will ever be another successful highjacking of a United States flight. 100 Angry old men will take out the terrorists rather than die crashing into a building and killing other innocent americans.

 

[Sahara]

If you consider accomplishing their goal of destroying our freedom winning, they won. I don't even recognize this country as the country I grew up in. I can't even walk into a courthouse where I have done work for 16 years, and know all the court personnel, without passing through a metal detector. The government can, without any court order, bug my calls, perform surveillance on me, and, if they decided that I "posed a threat" or had connections to terrorists, could lock me up in a jail outside of the United States without a trial, and torture me (enhanced interrogation techniques my butt). This country is a heck of a lot more like a middle eastern dictatorship then the Western Democracy I grew up in, because of the fear that attack instilled in the voting base.

However, I have to disagree with your "flight before fight" analysis on passenger planes after 9-11. I don't care if the flight were all elderly, knowing what we now know about what the terrorists intend, I don't think there will ever be another successful highjacking of a United States flight. 100 Angry old men will take out the terrorists rather than die crashing into a building and killing other innocent americans.

Don't relate technology or mistake it as a result of 9-11. We had metal detectors in my court house wll before 9-11. I agree that the government has instilled some extreme measures but there is no other county that you can go to in the world that grants you as much freedom as we do.

Lousi have you ever been to the middle east or countries such as Korea, Vietnam or China. I don't know how you could even compare them to the U.S.A. As for the belief that a 100 old men would fight off a terrorist attack I find it hard to believe as much but I would love to see it. I have seen instances of tragic events such as families standing idle while there loved ones are slaughtered before their eyes. One by one time after time when they can react or attempt to do something nothing is done.

The world is a cruel place, you have to realize this. If you want to compare the U.S.A. to these countries I suggest spending some time there (if you haven't) and your whole outlook may change.

 

[Dickbuttons]

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For me, however, the saddest thing is that as I see it, the terrorists won. They wanted to cause such fear that America would dramatically change for the worse, and it worked. We gave up hard fought for and earned freedoms 200+ years in the making in the stroke of the president's pen on the Patriot Act, and many Americans still approach life with the addage "what will keep us safe" formost on their minds.


I know it's a pain taking my shoes off before I board a plane, and its a pain waiting two hours to cross the Canadian border into the US, when it used to take 2 minutes, and its a pain going through metal detectors everywhere, and I can still recall freely walking around the halls of the Capital Building and all the monuments in Washington, --

but I still can exercise my right to worship however I believe, vote for whichever party I want, read any newspaper I want, drive 1000 miles cross-country to visit friends (I did last weekend) and not be asked even once for any identification, and on an on.

I humbly submit that No the terrorists didn't win --even though there are some minor inconviences in our lives -- they didn't win.

 

[Louis Badolato]

I guess I am just a half-empty kind of guy, and you guys are half-full kinds of guys. That being said, the freedom glass was full all the way on 9-10-01. Frankly, I am not particularly scared of terrorists. The Israelis put up with a heck of a lot more on a day to day basis, as did the Londoners during the Blitz. How many more people died in car accidents in 2001 then from terrorist attacks? If it happens, I say we fight back and do a little of terrorizing of our own (which is what we have been doing in Afghanistan).

I have been to the middle east, and central america, and seen some bad places, but the fact of the matter is, when I grew up we were the good guys, period. The land of the free and the home of the brave. We fought the good fight. We stood up to the Fascists and the Nazis. We cleaned up our own act with regard to racism throught he civil rights movement. We stood up to communism.

Maybe I'm naive, but at least within the United States, I felt that the Constitution protected the rights of all people. I'm not so sure any more. And Dick, with all do respect, I am not talking about minor inconveniences, I'm talking about suspension of the writ of habeas corpus, warrantless surveillance of American citizens, rights guaranteed by the Bill of Rights, which I hold as dear or more dear than the right to bear arms. Once any of these foundational civil rights are eroded away, the rest will fall. If you lose the right to bear arms, the right to due process, what's next? Free speech? Sorry guys, it would take a heck of a lot more than a couple of planes being crashed into buildings before I am ready to sign on to something like the patriot act.

 

[Sahara]

Unfortunately its a different world then what it was before Louis. I understand the old philosophy "Don't mess with the US" but we as a country are not respected as we once were. there is alot of hate out there and years back our enemies didn't have the technology or advancement that we did so it was unheard of to go against the US, England etc... In todays age the enemy has the upper hand, these terrorist do not fight the conventional war, they bend and twist the rules and they don't care by what means they achieve victory, even if the outcome is the end of humanity as we know it.

I know it sucks! I know rights are being violated but unless you want your children to have military escorts to school and bunkers and barb wire fencing surrounding th school like they do in Israel then certain sacrifices must be made. I know you rather fight and standup to the terrorist w/ violating any liberties but refer back to what you said in your first post "I caught the last subway out of Manhattan", "flight before fight". You had to know people were in trouble, people were sufferingbut yet you chose to leave the city instead of aide (I don't blame you alot of people would have done the same). The scene was by no means secure you could have stayed and did something as little as buying a bottle of water for someone who had just ran down one of the stairwells one of the towers, but that was not done. The people who did stay, the people that did aide and the people who walked into those towers to their death are the type of people that are fighting this war on the front lines everyday. By taking away their ability to fight the menace you are not only sealing thier fate but our fate as a country.

Do you think the Israeles want to live the way they do or if the means was available to prevent the Blitz that it would be surpassed. Do you think most Americans would want to see a soccer game in the streets of NY where the enemy uses the heads of children as the soccer balls as the parents are forced to watch (I saw this in training Russ/Chec Terrorist, the enemy often leaves tapes of their brutality to attempt to instill fear into their foe.) Would you prefer biological and chemical weapons that put the horrors you see in the movies to shame used on a daily basis here on our own soil. I hate to say it but if our own guys aren't given the chance to meet the enemy on a fair playing field then it goes w/o saying then the fight will come home to this country.

 

[Wraith]

You'll have to excuse a Brit's take on this, but did the terrorists win? No.
What they were undoubtedly trying to achieve with these acts was to spread fear amongst the people of the US and other countries. Has this been achieved? No. Are we more aware, take more precautions? Undoubtedly.

But,
Have the Airlines ground to a halt because people refuse to board the planes for fear of a similar reoccurance? No.
Do people stop going to work in high rise buildings? No.
Has any country buckled at the knees and started bowing down to the demands of the terrorist organisations? No. Quite the contrary. I believe the will and resolve of the people of the United States has grown stronger in response to his attrocity, at least, that is the appearance to an outsider.

With the tragic loss of life on 9/11 as a given fact, which can't be undone, all of the events on that date have shown, is that similar tactics will not work in bring a nation crumbling down.

Look at the professionalism and courage of the emergengy services called in to deal with these incidents. Second to none and beyond questioning. Did the people of New York and Washington break in to mass panic and become a hysterical, screaming and uncontrollable mob? No. They dealt with it. That to me shows who won on that particular day.

It is unfortunate that the changes in constitional rights have occurred, but I can only hope that these are temporary, to deal with the current threat level, and that relative normality returns at some point in the not to distant future. I can undersstand Louis concerns, as everything you work for and believe in has taken a huge battering, but I would hope that this is a temporary deviation to your constitutional rights.

Without getting in to the rights and wrongs of the world's subsequent response, which will always have two very differing outlooks, and I suspect no opinions will be changed from discussing them, and instead concentrating on whether the terrorists won, I would reiterate, that my opinion is a resounding, no. The people of the United States won on that particular day.

You are never going to be able to prevent a wilful minded individual from taking direct action of extreme means. If any one of us wanted to go out and commit attrocities, we all could. We have the means and we have the method. For me, it is more about how we deal with the aftermath of such an incident that determines who actualy wins.

Thoughts from across The Pond.

Simon

 

[Lewey Gun Vick]

The terrorists did not win! Think of the Todd Beemer who fought and sacrificed his life to take back the plane and all the other heroic acts committed that day by ordinary people. The terrorist did not win that day because they cannot conquer the idea of freedom. Tyranny can take away the right of freedom but they cannot take away the idea! Righteousness will always defeat evil to the very ends of the earth, look at examples: Winston Churchill defending Britain against Adolf Hitler, The defeat of Japanese imperialism, the overthrowing of the Soviet Union, the mujahadeens victory over the soviet invaders. It is important to remember these words when facing a difficult situation, "Lets Roll!".

Vick

 

[thebritfarmer]

I do tend to agree with Louis' points on this. Our lives have certainly been disrupted because of this. Passports will now be needed to cross the border between the US & Canada and for those (ie Me) I will also now need a card to go along with my British passport. Many Canadians from my town feel it more of a hassle to go to the States now so don't bother anymore.