Serge Grey Sudan Uniforms (2 Viewers)

[PolarBear]

Mike Snook's (author of Go Strong In The Desert) answer to my question on this topic on the Victorian Wars Forum:

Re: Serge Grey Sudan Uniforms 1884-85
by mike snook » 17 Jul 2010 07:15

Chaps

30,000 sets were commissioned by Wolseley for the 1882 intervention in Egypt but failed to arrive in time for the fighting. They went into store and were issued as field kit to units of Sir Frederick Stephenson's army of occupation when the Sudan businessgot under way (for the British) in early 1884. Units staging through Cairo/Alex from England (e.g. camel corps contingents) also received an issue. Units landing in the Eastern Sudan from India or Aden didn't. There were few sets left by 1885 - most were expended during the two campaigns of 1884 - first Suakin and Nile.

My personal view is that the blue-grey tinge has been overdone and perpetuated by successve artists. We are showing a light grey in the GSITD plates.

Regards

Mike

 

[Martin Tabony]

Mike Snook's (author of Go Strong In The Desert) answer to my question on this topic on the Victorian Wars Forum:

Re: Serge Grey Sudan Uniforms 1884-85
by mike snook » 17 Jul 2010 07:15

Chaps

30,000 sets were commissioned by Wolseley for the 1882 intervention in Egypt but failed to arrive in time for the fighting. They went into store and were issued as field kit to units of Sir Frederick Stephenson's army of occupation when the Sudan businessgot under way (for the British) in early 1884. Units staging through Cairo/Alex from England (e.g. camel corps contingents) also received an issue. Units landing in the Eastern Sudan from India or Aden didn't. There were few sets left by 1885 - most were expended during the two campaigns of 1884 - first Suakin and Nile.

My personal view is that the blue-grey tinge has been overdone and perpetuated by successve artists. We are showing a light grey in the GSITD plates.

Regards

Mike

Again though a personal view. I believe he freely admits that he is not a uniform expert.
I have only seen the bits and pieces left in the Hoousehold Cavalry museum and they were obviously very much aged and dirty. I remember an officers foreign service helmet in the back room where the cork had completly disolved.
The problem with service kit is that it's thrown back in the stores and forgot about. I don't think there's many first pattern D.P.M. combat jackets about now and they were made in the millions.
One question though, why the big deal about the exact shade of grey, when no one's bothered about all the different shades of red or blue that are used by variouse makers? Sometimes when you do try to get the right colour, it's like banging your head against a wall. Generaly I find collectors just want to know if they will match in with XYZ. Then it's a case of go with the flow.

Martin

 

[PolarBear]

Again though a personal view. I believe he freely admits that he is not a uniform expert.
I have only seen the bits and pieces left in the Hoousehold Cavalry museum and they were obviously very much aged and dirty. I remember an officers foreign service helmet in the back room where the cork had completly disolved.
The problem with service kit is that it's thrown back in the stores and forgot about. I don't think there's many first pattern D.P.M. combat jackets about now and they were made in the millions.
One question though, why the big deal about the exact shade of grey, when no one's bothered about all the different shades of red or blue that are used by variouse makers? Sometimes when you do try to get the right colour, it's like banging your head against a wall. Generaly I find collectors just want to know if they will match in with XYZ. Then it's a case of go with the flow.

Martin

Probably because the figures made by toy soldier makers on this subject have varied between grey and the blue-grey. Most products have been glossy but now that WB and JJD are doing matte it seemed a good time to try for some verification. Also John Jenkins has stated that he is trying to make his figures compatible with Wm. Britains so color compatibility is a consideration.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Probably because the figures made by toy soldier makers on this subject have varied between grey and the blue-grey. Most products have been glossy but now that WB and JJD are doing matte it seemed a good time to try for some verification. Also John Jenkins has stated that he is trying to make his figures compatible with Wm. Britains so color compatibility is a consideration.

I personaly have always relied on contempory paintings because at least these artists did actualy see the uniforms in use. I noticed you were looking for surviving tunics, have you found any?

Martin

 

[PolarBear]

I personaly have always relied on contempory paintings because at least these artists did actualy see the uniforms in use. I noticed you were looking for surviving tunics, have you found any?

Martin

Not one yet. I was told by a manufacturer that the material culture for this item is as scarce as hen's teeth. I believe even the Guards Museum does not have one.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Not one yet. I was told by a manufacturer that the material culture for this item is as scarce as hen's teeth. I believe even the Guards Museum does not have one.

A very interesting subject though, I'd be very much like to know if you do turn something up.
Find something with a pink or purple tinge, that would put the cat amongst the pidgeons

Martin

 

[The Breaker]

Polarbear,

If you take a look at the Show Reports- 69th Annual MFCA Show and Mart-Live Reports, there is a photo posted by Andanna on 05/08/10 that shows a close-up of a Black Watch Highlander charging and he appears to be wearing the proper gray tunic, which I think you are looking for.
I believe the Britains British Camel Corps blue-gray jumpers are a different color than the grey tunics worn by the Black Watch Highlanders. Someone would have to check with Richard or Ken with Britains to be sure. I am very satisfied with the colors that Britains is using for these figures (Can't wait to get my hands on them!)

I got the first set of Jenkins figures and they appear to be a darker gray w/ blue tinge but close enough for me personally, nicely done figures.

I was very surprised to see that Mike Snook said that the same gray tunics were worn by both units. He is much more of an expert than I but I was under the impression that they were different pattern of jackets.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Polarbear,

If you take a look at the Show Reports- 69th Annual MFCA Show and Mart-Live Reports, there is a photo posted by Andanna on 05/08/10 that shows a close-up of a Black Watch Highlander charging and he appears to be wearing the proper gray tunic, which I think you are looking for.
I believe the Britains British Camel Corps blue-gray jumpers are a different color than the grey tunics worn by the Black Watch Highlanders. Someone would have to check with Richard or Ken with Britains to be sure. I am very satisfied with the colors that Britains is using for these figures (Can't wait to get my hands on them!)

I got the first set of Jenkins figures and they appear to be a darker gray w/ blue tinge but close enough for me personally, nicely done figures.

I was very surprised to see that Mike Snook said that the same gray tunics were worn by both units. He is much more of an expert than I but I was under the impression that they were different pattern of jackets.

Highlanders did generaly wear a different pattern of frock with cut away skirts, but I think in the case of the grey serge issue for the 1884 campaigns, any unit that recieved it got the same. That's not to say that regimental tailors didn't do alterations, if there was time. I don't know if there are any members hear who served in a Highland regiment but they would confirm that N02 dress for instance is a standard issue and then tailored at regimental level.

Martin

 

[The Breaker]

Hi Martin,
Agreed, there is a good picture of this in the Osprey Men at Arms #89 "The Sudan Campaigns" which shows several highlanders in the Sudan wearing both the cut away tunic and the regular infantry pattern.

I was speaking of the difference in the grey serge tunic and the tunic worn by the camel corps. I thought the tunic for the camel troopers was different from grey tunic worn by the infantry units.

I have two Osprey books that have two different descriptions of the Camel Corps tunics.
The colored plate in this Osprey #89 shows the Camel Corps trooper wearing a light grey "frock" with two patch pockets.
The later Osprey British Army on Campaign shows the Camel Corps tunic to be the blue-grey and the private's tunic to have no pockets. These photos have been posted on another thread.

So at the end of the day I am still happy with what Britains and JJD have done with their Sudan figures because it is hard to tell who is right on the money.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Hi Martin,
Agreed, there is a good picture of this in the Osprey Men at Arms #89 "The Sudan Campaigns" which shows several highlanders in the Sudan wearing both the cut away tunic and the regular infantry pattern.

I was speaking of the difference in the grey serge tunic and the tunic worn by the camel corps. I thought the tunic for the camel troopers was different from grey tunic worn by the infantry units.

I have two Osprey books that have two different descriptions of the Camel Corps tunics.
The colored plate in this Osprey #89 shows the Camel Corps trooper wearing a light grey "frock" with two patch pockets.
The later Osprey British Army on Campaign shows the Camel Corps tunic to be the blue-grey and the private's tunic to have no pockets. These photos have been posted on another thread.

So at the end of the day I am still happy with what Britains and JJD have done with their Sudan figures because it is hard to tell who is right on the money.

I think thats the point though, actual evidence is so scarce that all modern artists end up using the same source material. They're both probably right. I know that I use a similar colour on the figures I'm making (Heritage) so I could be a bit biased. He who pays the piper calls the tune.

Martin

 

[The Breaker]

You're right and I don't think you could have picked a better color, it looks grey enough to me.

 

[PolarBear]

Officer & Pvt., Grenadier Guards, Camel Corps, 1884-5

 

[aujj65]

I took these photos at the London show in December last year. These are the painted protoypes that were on display and very kindly held by Ken Osen so I could take some better close ups.

Jeff

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I took these photos at the London show in December last year. These are the painted protoypes that were on display and very kindly held by Ken Osen so I could take some better close ups.

Jeff

To me, one looks light blue and the other looks light grey

Terry

 

[Martin Tabony]

To me, one looks light blue and the other looks light grey

Terry

They look like two shades of grey to me! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think we could go round on this one and get nowhere, if there's no actual evidence it's always going to be personal choice. This question does make me think that a uniform thread would be interesting on this forum somewhere though.

Martin

 

[Phantom Warrior]

They look like two shades of grey to me! Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, I think we could go round on this one and get nowhere, if there's no actual evidence it's always going to be personal choice. This question does make me think that a uniform thread would be interesting on this forum somewhere though.

Martin

True. And I will get some of whatever colour it looks like. It's close enough, especially as there is no difinitive answer.

Terry

 

[The Breaker]

You nailed it earlier in the thread Martin, that unless all the manufacturers use the same paint, the shades will vary somewhat. So if you want to mix different manufacturers figures "close enough" will have to do.

 

[PolarBear]

Here are 2 photos of a serge grey British uniform posted on the Victorian Wars Forum. I don't have info on specific date or regiment yet.

 

[Martin Tabony]

Here are 2 photos of a serge grey British uniform posted on the Victorian Wars Forum. I don't have info on specific date or regiment yet.

Lovely tunic Coldstream Guards 2lt. If it is original I would say it's a private purchase though. It even has the buttons in regimental pairs (Second Foot Guards) Still it's the closest thing I've seen to the issue tunic. Definatly no blue tint, if anything it looks brown. Thanks for posting I missed it on the VWF.

Martin

 

[PolarBear]

Lovely tunic Coldstream Guards 2lt. If it is original I would say it's a private purchase though. It even has the buttons in regimental pairs (Second Foot Guards) Still it's the closest thing I've seen to the issue tunic. Definatly no blue tint, if anything it looks brown. Thanks for posting I missed it on the VWF.

Martin

Here are details:

I think the brownish tint may be due to aging of the fabric?