So, the "Barbarians" (1 Viewer)

[Currahee Chris]

I have been thinking on the topic of the Roman opposition- as I know some of you have as well given some of the areas the Roman thread touched upon. I really believe that the "Barbarians" are a really really tricky set of antagonists to produce.

My point- virtually the entire European continent was one massive agrarian/ tribal society during the Roman Empire (and certainly the Republic). Clothing and tools/weaponry was very very utilitarian in nature. Looking at all the past renditions of Barbarians, there have been some very colorful and very well equipped barbarians to take up arms against Rome. From all the historical readings I have done, this was very much the exception rather than the norm.

The quandry for toy soldier producers is how do you get collectors to spend the same amount of money to buy the barbarians as they would pay for Roman Legionaires?? On the one hand, you can "Hollywood" them up like many producers have done and give them some armor, pretty pants, shields and large swords. The collector sees these beautiful, eye catching figures and can be satisified they are getting their monies worth as those figures- especially from KC and Conte look really really good when grouped en masse. BUT- Say the producer decides to stick with historical accuracy- how does that translate for sales??? Would a FL collector be willing to shell out $50 (presumably on my part) for what is essentially a tribal farmer wielding a scythe?? While historically accurate, not as eye catching as the Romans are.

Interesting dillemma I can appreciate for the producers of this period. Gotta admit, I never purchased any of the St. Pete barbarians for the simple fact I just didn't/couldn't justify spending those prices on what were really farmers. Their products are beautiful but dollar for dollar, I went with the Romans every time.

It will be interesting to see where FL goes with this part of the Roman line. It's going to be a neat balancing act between artistry and historical accuracy. I think if they go the historical accuracy route, really engaging poses can make it easier for collectors to shell out $50/figure. Admittedly, if I don't see any poses that jump out at me, I will happily give my coin to Conte where I can essentially snag 3 barbarians for the price of one FL one (again, presumably).

Thoughts????.....

 

[marco55]

Go with the hollywood muscle guys Chris.They may not be "right" but you will enjoy them a lot more.^&grin.Seriously the sculpts I saw of FL's look pretty good.
Mark

 

[debrito]

I go with Mark, and sometimes we can put on the side this obsession of accuracy and just make a nice well made sculpt figures, BTW nobody was there to really know if they used colourful clothes or not.. One thing is almost sure everybody borrowed something from everybody else, clothes, weaponry tools etc..

Go with the hollywood muscle guys Chris.They may not be "right" but you will enjoy them a lot more.^&grin.Seriously the sculpts I saw of FL's look pretty good.
Mark

 

[Currahee Chris]

I was there!! {sm4}

I agree that the FL figures look good, not denying that- in fact, upon looking at them, they look more accurate than what I have seen released. The thing is though, does FL, who takes pride in their accuracy, sacrifice a little accuracy to artistry to help sell the figs??

It's all good, I'm not hating, I just appreciate the quandry barbarians can present. Perhaps this issue has been a barrier for other companies to not consider Rome??? I dunno....

Still, while I think KC's Barbarians were some of the best figures they ever did, the one figure with the Boar standard raises some interesting historical questions- seeing how standards pre Empire reflected animals beside the Eagle, this one particular guy wields a boar standard which could imply someone from his lineage/tribe fought the Romans during their Republic years^&confuse With a stretch of imagination, perhaps a distant relative/ tribemate was a mercenary for the Romans and scooped up the standard prior to leaving the field of battle. I dunno.

All should be revealed soon I believe.

 

[Spitfrnd]

I think you are making too much of descriptions of the barbarians that as Mark says really are not all that clear. I would suggest that if they gave Caesar as much trouble as he said they did, they were armed with something more lethal than farm tools. Is there any doubt they had swords, shields of some type and spears? Even if they started out with none, by the time FL is covering they could have had more than sufficient quantities just by pilfering from the Romans. Also, it is clear that many cultures earlier than the Germanic tribes had these basic hand weapons so I would be very surprised if the Germans had not developed them as well. If they were farmers, they sure were farmers with more than a little attitude to keep so many legions occupied for so long.

 

[Currahee Chris]

i place a lot of faith in the descriptions used by ancient historians (as I believe that is what you were referring too??). Admittedly, I am probably in the minority there but hey??? By farm tools- well, axes are farm tools, knives are farm tools, scythes are farm tools, etc- farm tools were essentially the genesis of weapons for many cultures in Europe and Asia- Japan.

also, while I agree they were formidable, the whole point of moving into Europe was to take possession of the land and conquest. Lot's of garrison duty during this timeframe.

anyway, just putting the thoughts out there.........

 

[churchmouse1]

I think you are making too much of descriptions of the barbarians that as Mark says really are not all that clear. I would suggest that if they gave Caesar as much trouble as he said they did, they were armed with something more lethal than farm tools. Is there any doubt they had swords, shields of some type and spears? Even if they started out with none, by the time FL is covering they could have had more than sufficient quantities just by pilfering from the Romans. Also, it is clear that many cultures earlier than the Germanic tribes had these basic hand weapons so I would be very surprised if the Germans had not developed them as well. If they were farmers, they sure were farmers with more than a little attitude to keep so many legions occupied for so long.

Yes. Many of the "barbarian" cultures, including that of the Germanic tribes, were just as sophisticated as the Romans. The Romans weren't fighting stone age tribes.

Dave

 

[Sahara]

I agree with Dave, many of these tribes were allies of Rome before rebelling. Rome left a lasting impression in most of these cultures and in many cases most of those who started rebelions served in the Roman army at one time or another. Yes, alot of the barbarians were farmers etc... who took up arms when the time called for it but we cannot be as naive to think that these tribes didn't have a warrior class as well. In fact German warriors were so highly thought of that most emperors used them as there personal body guard rather then the preatorian guard. Even the great julius Caesar held the German warrior as an elite and used them as a personal escort across the Rubicon.

 

[Gebhard]

I agree with Dave, many of these tribes were allies of Rome before rebelling. Rome left a lasting impression in most of these cultures and in many cases most of those who started rebelions served in the Roman army at one time or another. Yes, alot of the barbarians were farmers etc... who took up arms when the time called for it but we cannot be as naive to think that these tribes didn't have a warrior class as well. In fact German warriors were so highly thought of that most emperors used them as there personal body guard rather then the preatorian guard. Even the great julius Caesar held the German warrior as an elite and used them as a personal escort across the Rubicon.

Very good post :wink2: would love to see someone do Caesars mounted Germanic body guard ^&cool
I just finished watching the 2 dvd set Barbarians welcome to the other side of Roman history with host Terry Jones ( of monty python fame) for the third time through and most of the new archaeological sites shown and the scientists interviewed for this documentary seems to now think that the Romans were the real Barbarians . Not saying I buy all of it but we are relying on one side of the story ....Romes as most of her enemies left little or no written record .. It was very interesting to say the least and was full of information and sites new to me .. well worth a look ...you can pick it up cheap on e bay .. Regards Gebhard

 

[churchmouse1]

Very good post :wink2: would love to see someone do Caesars mounted Germanic body guard ^&cool
I just finished watching the 2 dvd set Barbarians welcome to the other side of Roman history with host Terry Jones ( of monty python fame) for the third time through and most of the new archaeological sites shown and the scientists interviewed for this documentary seems to now think that the Romans were the real Barbarians . Not saying I buy all of it but we are relying on one side of the story ....Romes as most of her enemies left little or no written record .. It was very interesting to say the least and was full of information and sites new to me .. well worth a look ...you can pick it up cheap on e bay .. Regards Gebhard

Gebhard,

I just watched the second dvd last night. But I'd read The Gallic Wars in Latin in high school, so I already knew the Gauls, Celts, and Belgae were no slouches.

Dave

 

[Gebhard]

Gebhard,

I just watched the second dvd last night. But I'd read The Gallic Wars in Latin in high school, so I already knew the Gauls, Celts, and Belgae were no slouches.

Dave

Oh slow learner huh Dave :rolleyes2: I read that one when I was eleven while riding my full boat at Heidelberg U ^&grin ..Just joking {sm4} I was referring to " the Brainy Barbarians " episode I'm fascinated with Professor Wrights work with the Antikythera Mechanism ..:wink2: regards Gebhard

 

[Fusilier]

Yes. Many of the "barbarian" cultures, including that of the Germanic tribes, were just as sophisticated as the Romans. The Romans weren't fighting stone age tribes.

Dave

That's a good point Dave. Besides, didn't such 'Roman' items as ring mail or the Montefortino and Coolus helmets orginate with some of the Celtic and Gallic tribes?

Noah

 

[churchmouse1]

Oh slow learner huh Dave :rolleyes2: I read that one when I was eleven while riding my full boat at Heidelberg U ^&grin ..Just joking {sm4} I was referring to " the Brainy Barbarians " episode I'm fascinated with Professor Wrights work with the Antikythera Mechanism ..:wink2: regards Gebhard

Know what First Legion needs to make? One of Archimedes' giant claws!

Dave

 

[debrito]

I agree with Dave, many of these tribes were allies of Rome before rebelling. Rome left a lasting impression in most of these cultures and in many cases most of those who started rebelions served in the Roman army at one time or another. Yes, alot of the barbarians were farmers etc... who took up arms when the time called for it but we cannot be as naive to think that these tribes didn't have a warrior class as well. In fact German warriors were so highly thought of that most emperors used them as there personal body guard rather then the preatorian guard. Even the great julius Caesar held the German warrior as an elite and used them as a personal escort across the Rubicon.

You are absolutely RIGHT. Caesar used the German Cavalry as personal bodyguards throughout the Gaul Campaign and very often, those Cavalry were sent to the front line to help and sometimes readdressed the situation. The Romans was the first professional soldiers and the fact that they were highly training makes the different between then and Barbarians tribes.

 

[Currahee Chris]

I think you guys are completely missing the point of my initial post, which, I had a feeling would happen given that it was as long as it was so my bad there.

I am not naive regarding the abilities of the Roman enemies, I am in fact, rather well informed, I do believe a lot of assumptions are being made behind my post which simply are not there.

Anyway, this might help illustrate my position a bit better- recall in the movie Gladiator in the initial scene- for all that movie's issues with accuracy, I feel they nailed the Germanic tribes so far as I imagine them. Now, I am assuming many collectors here have seen the flick and recall how dingy, grubby, etc the Germans appeared in that conflict?? They did in fact show them in outfits that were probably somewhat colorful at one time though the rigors of their lifestyle led to the deterioration of the fabric and muting of the colors so they were rather drab when massed in combat. The point being, if we take those barbarians to be historically accurate- would you as a collector be willing to shovel out $50 or so for a grubby Germanic tribesman covered in bearskin or fur?? That was the point of my thread- looking at the challenge, as I see it anyway, for manufacturers to release historically accurate "barbarians" at prices comparable to the cleaner, crisper looking legionaires- that's it. Over the years of collecting Roman ranges, their barbarian counterparts have been dressed out in very splendid and colorful outfits- an almost Napoleonic-era influence on what was rather a very rough and trying lifestyle for those men and women who lived it. I have always felt that the other major producers who gave us barbarians swayed more towards artistry and sacrificed historical accuracy to a degree to perhaps help sell their figures.

 

[Andanna]

I think this is a great topic and I am happy to add my 5 cents:

Focusing (possibly unfairly) on the "Battle of the Teutoburger Forrest", Arminius was first of all in command of the Roman auxiliary cavalry that was responsible for reconnaissance. He would hence as a Roman officer and Roman citizen worn something very close to a Roman uniform in my opinion. I assume that some of the German soldiers serving as soldiers or allies in the Roman army were armed and clothed from the Roman inventory of uniform pieces and weapons. Did they go home and change before turning around from their recon mission to attack their (former) masters? Probably not. I hence believe that in the initial stage, this battle would have looked like a Roman civil war with the brunt of the German troops being the Roman auxiliary turning on Roman legionnaires.

I do not believe there was a powerful alliance of German tribes. But once Arminius had some initial successes, certain German tribes joined him - generally for looting. I do not believe there was an over-arching goal such as a resurrection for many of the German combatants. Hence I would expect a lot of the German warriors wearing Roman uniform pieces and wielding Roman weapons.

From a commercial perspective, I am not sure this helps. But I do agree that Arminius probably did not fight bare-chested, in striped pants and wielding an axe. ^&grin

And there is hope: you can make Germanic tribal warriors in plain pants (Perhaps, Matt can offer two painting styles per figure?):

 

[Currahee Chris]

That is such a wonderful diorama- I cannot ever get tired of looking at it!! The website has a great booklet on the battle and diorama as well.

On a grander scheme of things, this "ragtag" approach or look to toy soldiers is something I have always found interesting. I had a nice conversation with a buddy of mine on Sunday in Gettysburg about KC and CS WW2 figures- I felt CS does a better job of bringing the "grit" out in uniforms. He respectfully disagreed- but I don't want to digress and erupt that debate. I just know from my experience, I was quite filthy, sweaty and smelly at times and can't say that seems to come through with anyone- all the discussion about accuracy (and I agree with Rod, it seems overboard at times), seems to skip over this human element of warfare- perhaps scratch and sniff toy soldiers will be the wave of the future!! {sm4}{eek3}{eek3}{sm4}

 

[Alex]

hi chris,
i get your point completely.

I love my fl naps and samurais, so colorful. fl romans and mameluks look very tempting as a third or fourth fl serie for me. however, i'm less interested in buying fl crusaders for the moment because they look a little bit too simple to my eyes. what i mean by that is i would prefer to buy medieval guys painted the way kolobob figures are, with cool draperies, heraldries, etc.. less historically accurate but more pleasant to my eyes. same thing for barbarians, if they come with nice colorful clothes, i'll buy some for sure.. so i'm like you, for 50$ or so i like to get the more details in sculpting and painting possible and fl has delivered awesome products to date.

alex

 

[Currahee Chris]

thanks for your input Alex

went back and looked at the figures again on the website- is it me or does the one standing barbarian with the glass? sword look like he has a huge diaper on?? {sm4}{sm4}

Looking at the other one, he does in fact look more like the gladiator germans than I envision................ will be neat to see how these guys paint up.

 

[debrito]

"Quintili Vare, legiones redde!“

''Varus, give back my Legions’’