The Battle of the Bulge- Germany wins now what? (1 Viewer)

[Currahee Chris]

I'm not an expert by any means on the Battle of the Bulge though I have some general understanding and want to gather opinions:

1.) The germans were intent on breaking through to Antwerp to hopefully cutoff the Aliied reenforcements and hope that they sue for a truce/Armisitice. Was that Hitler's objective?? I thought he was always against any type of truce.

2.) Say Piper and the lot have all the fuel they need to launch the campaign and fight an allied counterattack to a standstill- do the Allies accept Hitler's proposal and allow him to stay in command? Then what?? Or do the Allies solidify their gains from Overlord and then punch back at the Nazis in fall 1945 or 1946 (essentially creating a DMZ like we have between the Koreas).

3.) How does western Europe look if the Allies fall short in the Bulge? Does Stalin keep on rolling into Berlin w/out England and the US? Do the British and Americans stop (via diplomatic means I would assume) the Russians from hositing the flag over the Reichstag??

Just interesting to think what might have been had Germany succeeded. I have come to learn of Germany's support/assistance being lent to Middle Eastern countries in WW1 in support of Jihad against the UK- Imagine if the Nazis stayed in power up till now and were backing a jihad against the US.......{sm2}

 

[PanzerAce1944]

It seems that Hitler was trying to drive a wedge between the Allies at Antwerp, capture a vital supply port and cause confusion and fear in the process. All this to then be able to focus his main priority on the Russians moving in from the east. The Men and Tanks lost during the Bulge Offensive would have possibly been better used defending the eastern front against "their" sworn enemy. Another version of the war if Hitler played his cards differently......
What if Germany never invaded Poland, continued to build up their strength and stock pile weapons such as the ME262 jet, Tanks, V-2 rockets, etc. and then start WWII in say 1945 ????? Scary thought........
Then again it is hard to figure out the motives of a mad man set out to attack the whole of europe and then some.

 

[Currahee Chris]

What if Germany never invaded Poland, continued to build up their strength and stock pile weapons such as the ME262 jet, Tanks, V-2 rockets, etc. and then start WWII in say 1945 ????? Scary thought....

You know, in all of the years I have been reading about WW2, that thought never crossed my mind. Wow!! Yeah, that would have been really interesting. I guess Hitler would have had to have known about the wonder weapons in order to consider stockpiling- were the ME262 and V Rockets in the design stage in 1939??

 

[uksubs]

It seems that Hitler was trying to drive a wedge between the Allies at Antwerp, capture a vital supply port and cause confusion and fear in the process. All this to then be able to focus his main priority on the Russians moving in from the east. The Men and Tanks lost during the Bulge Offensive would have possibly been better used defending the eastern front against "their" sworn enemy. Another version of the war if Hitler played his cards differently......
What if Germany never invaded Poland, continued to build {sm5}up their strength and stock pile weapons such as the ME262 jet, Tanks, V-2 rockets, etc. and then start WWII in say 1945 ????? Scary thought........
Then again it is hard to figure out the motives of a mad man set out to attack the whole of europe and then some.

The reason why the v2 & me 262 were made was Germany was at war and losing it ,you could say the same about America not entering the war till 1945 when they had:rolleyes2: the atom bomb

 

[uksubs]

It seems that Hitler was trying to drive a wedge between the Allies at Antwerp, capture a vital supply port and cause confusion and fear in the process. All this to then be able to focus his main priority on the Russians moving in from the east. The Men and Tanks lost during the Bulge Offensive would have possibly been better used defending the eastern front against "their" sworn enemy. Another version of the war if Hitler played his cards differently......
You make a good point that forces used by the Germans for the battle would of been better used on the eastern front, have you heard the story that the allies new about the plan for the battle of the bulge and let it happen as it played into there hands as it was easy to take them out in the open then behind Siegfried Line ?

 

[uksubs]

You know, in all of the years I have been reading about WW2, that thought never crossed my mind. Wow!! Yeah, that would have been really interesting. I guess Hitler would have had to have known about the wonder weapons in order to consider stockpiling- were the ME262 and V Rockets in the design stage in 1939??

I think Germany tested a jet in 1941 but even in 1945 the Me 262 still had a lot of problems & started working on rockets 1942 ^&confuse

 

[PanzerAce1944]

You know, in all of the years I have been reading about WW2, that thought never crossed my mind. Wow!! Yeah, that would have been really interesting. I guess Hitler would have had to have known about the wonder weapons in order to consider stockpiling- were the ME262 and V Rockets in the design stage in 1939??

Most of the well known wonder weapons started appearing about 1944, but research and developement had to be years prior to actual production.So say 2 years or 3 years of mass production versus a few months and then thrown into service.Taking into account they didn't start the war yet thus factories were not getting bombed and cranked out all of this at an alrming rate. Just a spin to what if they waited and planned better ?

 

[Mitch]

The Bulge offensive was designed to stop the allies sufficiently enough and allow germany time to deal with the soviets. armistice or the hope of suing for peace was possibly, in Hitlers mind but, not too many of the generals believed this would happen. It was hoped, especially for Hitlers and his inner circle that the allies especially the US would suffer so many casualties that they would either not have the spirit to continue the fight or, they would be so affected that an effort to push on to Berlin would be delayed so much they could deal with the russians with the new weapons and, that the V2 programme would stop the english dead in their tracks.

It may have been far more tactically astute to have used all that good armour and build up of troops especially, the SS units to blunt and slow the russians allowing the allies to move deeper into germany. indeed, had this worked it may have completely transformed the years we know as the cold war.

If Germany had not attacked poland and had the deal with the soviets allowing their division of the polish lands then, russia planned on attacking germany very soon after this attack. so, war would still have came just in a different format. There are russian documents showing that this was something stalin was serious about. Germany had built sufficient forces and materials the problem was they never, until too late, had their war machine on full manufacturing levels like other countries. Even with this flaw they still increased production in the latter stages of the war despite the heavy bombing.
Mitch

 

[PanzerAce1944]

The reason why the v2 & me 262 were made was Germany was at war and losing it ,you could say the same about America not entering the war till 1945 when they had:rolleyes2: the atom bomb

America entered the war soon after the Japanese bombed pearl harbor in Dec 7 1941. Germany declared war on the U.S. within a day of pearl harbor.The U.S. first fought the Germans in North Africa in 1943. {eek3}

 

[Mitch]

Hitlers biggest mistake. It was still very very uncertain that the US would have become involved in the ETO. Hitler played right into Churchills hands by foolishly declaring war on the US
Mitch

America entered the war soon after the Japanese bombed pearl harbor in Dec 7 1941. Germany declared war on the U.S. within a day of pearl harbor.The U.S. first fought the Germans in North Africa in 1943. {eek3}

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Hitlers biggest mistake. It was still very very uncertain that the US would have become involved in the ETO. Hitler played right into Churchills hands by foolishly declaring war on the US
Mitch

Yep, The majority of Americans did not want to get involved in the war. Enter pearl harbor and Hitlers foolish war declaration on the U.S. and the flood gates of Americas industrial might went into full swing. Clearly an appetite for self destruction! {sm2}

 

[uksubs]

America entered the war soon after the Japanese bombed pearl harbor in Dec 7 1941. Germany declared war on the U.S. within a day of pearl harbor.The U.S. first fought the Germans in North Africa in 1943. {eek3}[/QUOTE

And Germany invaded Poland in 1939^&grion but this thread about what if,

 

[Mitch]

I think they belived that they would have beaten the russians befoire US troops hit the ground
Mitch

Yep, The majority of Americans did not want to get involved in the war. Enter pearl harbor and Hitlers foolish war declaration on the U.S. and the flood gates of Americas industrial might went into full swing. Clearly an appetite for self destruction! {sm2}

 

[PanzerAce1944]

America entered the war soon after the Japanese bombed pearl harbor in Dec 7 1941. Germany declared war on the U.S. within a day of pearl harbor.The U.S. first fought the Germans in North Africa in 1943. {eek3}[/QUOTE

And Germany invaded Poland in 1939^&grion but this thread about what if,

OK,Germany won the bulge. Brought their U-Boats to the English shores,went to Piccadilly and drank some pints with Winston and sir Neville........ {sm3}

 

[Louis Badolato]

Germany wins the Battle of the Bulge, crosses the Meuse River, and pushes for Antwerp . . . then the weather clears, and the Allied Air Forces have a field day.

The German soft skinned vehicles and horse drawn supplies and artillery are completely annihilated, turning the captured area of the Bulge into what amounts to an enormous "Fallaise Pocket".

Without the fuel and ammunition carried by the soft skinned vehicles, the Germans have to abandon their armor and retreat on foot in the frigid winter weather back across the Meuse River and back through the Ardennes to the German border. We are back to the status quo by the end of February.

Hitler was looking for another Dunkirk, but this time the Allies, not the Nazi's had air supremacy. Further, except for the poor green troops overrun during the initial hours of the attack, the British and Americans were in large part veteran troops who had fought the Nazis across North Africa, Sicily, Italy, France and Holland. Many didn't panic, and they fought back very effectively. Even if the Nazis had managed to find fuel and cross the Meuse, once the weather cleared, under these circumstances, their defeat was only a matter of time.

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Fighter Bomber Field Day {eek3}

 

[Phantom Warrior]

You know, in all of the years I have been reading about WW2, that thought never crossed my mind. Wow!! Yeah, that would have been really interesting. I guess Hitler would have had to have known about the wonder weapons in order to consider stockpiling- were the ME262 and V Rockets in the design stage in 1939??

The wonder weapons may not have been developed without the pressure of a war. War can be a very innovative period.

Terry

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Most of the well known wonder weapons started appearing about 1944, but research and developement had to be years prior to actual production.So say 2 years or 3 years of mass production versus a few months and then thrown into service.Taking into account they didn't start the war yet thus factories were not getting bombed and cranked out all of this at an alrming rate. Just a spin to what if they waited and planned better ?

But could a do-nothing until 1945 Hitler have retained power? There was lots of German opposition to Hitler in 1938 but was quieted in part by his annexations and winning small wars up to the Battle of France.

Terry