The Victoria Cross - Interesting Site (2 Viewers)

[The Military Workshop]

I have just made a post on the K&C forum about Rorkes Drift and as many would know that was where 11 Victoria Crosses were awarded.
For those interested in a great site I recommend a look at
www.victoriacross.org.uk/vcross.htm which has information about VC winners, pictures of the sets, location of VC's and recent sales etc. Incidentally the most medals in a VC set appears to be Keith Payne. Keith is an Australian Vietnam Veteran who served in the Training Team with the US Special Forces. He has 23 and if anybody knows of a VC winner who has more I would be interested to know.
I only heard of him recently but Lord Ashcroft from UK has the ultimate hobby. He collects VC sets and has over 140 including Chard's (the commander at Rorkes Drift) which apparently went for a world record price in 2001. His name features in a lot in the VC auctions. Worth googling him as he has also written a book on VC's. He is worth 800 million pounds.
World record apparently was A$1.2m last year which was for the last remaining Australian Gallipoli VC winner not held by the Australian War Memorial. Bought by a media billionaire to give to the AWM. However this year the Charles Upham (a Kiwi) double VC set (only 3 have received VC and bar) was sold for NZ$3.3m and purchased by Imperial war Museum (to remain in New Zealand).
Regards
Brett Williams
Brisbane Australia

 

[vandilay]

Their was a lot of contreversy here about the sale of uphams medals
A lot of people thought his daughters where being greedy as the man
himself had never taken anything for his service and turned down the
offer of a free farm at the end of the war and bought it of his own right,
and had loaned the medals too the national war museum.
Luckily through the imperial war museums generosity they will remain
on display here which is a big deal as I believe he was the only soldier in ww 2
too win a double vc.
as an aside it was rumoured he would not allow a german machine or car on his farm.

 

[The Military Workshop]

The selling of VC's by a family is an interesting point. I had a Vietnam Veteran in the shop and we were discussing Keith Payne being offered a not insignificant amount for his set. I believe it was A$1.8m and that was likely to have been then donated to the Australian War Memorial. The Vet was seriously trying to to tell me if it was him he would donate it to the Memorial for free !
I had discussed this with Keith before and knew it was a problem as he knew giving the set to one familiy member was not an option especially when so valuable. Keith has a few kids and grandkids and I do not begrudge him selling his set to divide amongst them. After all sportsmen make millions out of throwing a ball around.
As it is Keith Payne has sold it to a buyer who has a museum in Qld so it will stay in his home state. I am sure he could have got more at an auction.
I have not seen any news about the Upham sale (other than on that web page) but I think it unfair to suggest the daugthers should have given the set away.
I think USA recent introduced a law to stop people selling original medals. Would have been painful if you had a valuable Medal of Honour set.
Regards
Brett Williams

 

[vandilay]

Hi Brett

I agree its a dificuilt one ,I personally cant blame his daughters for
trying to make some money .The reality is because of an act of parliment
they wouldnt have been able to leave the country.I believe the worry
is it sets a precedent as most other Kiwi vc winners have either donated or
have them on loan to the the national war musuem.
Often I think with these awards they stand for not just the winner but the men who served alongside them ,so the sale of one can become a touchy
subject with other veterans or their familys.

Regards Rob

 

[Louis Badolato]

The selling of VC's by a family is an interesting point. I had a Vietnam Veteran in the shop and we were discussing Keith Payne being offered a not insignificant amount for his set. I believe it was A$1.8m and that was likely to have been then donated to the Australian War Memorial. The Vet was seriously trying to to tell me if it was him he would donate it to the Memorial for free !
I had discussed this with Keith before and knew it was a problem as he knew giving the set to one familiy member was not an option especially when so valuable. Keith has a few kids and grandkids and I do not begrudge him selling his set to divide amongst them. After all sportsmen make millions out of throwing a ball around.
As it is Keith Payne has sold it to a buyer who has a museum in Qld so it will stay in his home state. I am sure he could have got more at an auction.
I have not seen any news about the Upham sale (other than on that web page) but I think it unfair to suggest the daugthers should have given the set away.
I think USA recent introduced a law to stop people selling original medals. Would have been painful if you had a valuable Medal of Honour set.
Regards
Brett Williams

It has always been illegal to sell the Medal of Honor here in the United States. Medals of Honor can only be possessed by the recipiant or his family, or must be returned to the government (probably for display in a museum). I guss this solves the issue of sale of these medals at least in the United States.

 

[damian]

Last year the Durban High School (my old High School) managed to secure the miniature VC of Edwin Swales. The original is in teh Military History Museum in Johannesburg. Swales was a pathfinder and master bomber, In Fev 1945 his Lancaster bomber was seriously damaged. He kept the plane flying to allow his crew to jump to safety. He was never seen alive again. We are very happy at DHS to have secured his dress medals and a silver modle of a Lancaster that was given to hois mother by teh factroy that made the Lancaster Bombers during the war.

Regards
Damian

 

[Bob]

Your comment on the double VC set reminds me of the story of Field Marshall Roberts – only man to wear two VCs. He won his own VC and then decades later his son was awarded one posthumously. Queen Victoria ordered “Plucky wee Bobs” to wear his own VC on his left breast and his son’s on the right. He remains the only man to have worn two.

For the Queen’s Jubilee (Elizabeth’s not Victoria’s) there was a march past, and then a open car drove past with a Victoria Cross holder and a George Cross holder both of whom ahd been awarded their medals by a newly crowned monarch. The Queen, the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Charles and all the Royals present rose to acknowledge them as they passed .

Going back to the SWaBs – they have a display of the 16 VCs the regiment has won in their museum - impressive

 

[kilted vampire]

Your comment on the double VC set reminds me of the story of Field Marshall Roberts – only man to wear two VCs. He won his own VC and then decades later his son was awarded one posthumously. Queen Victoria ordered “Plucky wee Bobs” to wear his own VC on his left breast and his son’s on the right. He remains the only man to have worn two.

For the Queen’s Jubilee (Elizabeth’s not Victoria’s) there was a march past, and then a open car drove past with a Victoria Cross holder and a George Cross holder both of whom ahd been awarded their medals by a newly crowned monarch. The Queen, the Duke of Edinburgh, Prince Charles and all the Royals present rose to acknowledge them as they passed .

Going back to the SWaBs – they have a display of the 16 VCs the regiment has won in their museum - impressive

That would have been an incredible source of pride and sorrow. I hesitate to imagine.

 

[Bob]

On a similar theme I don’t know if any of you saw my article in TSC on Sefton’s Saddle. I had a personal invitation from the Adjutant at the Household Cavalry Barracks to photograph Sefton’s Saddle so I pushed my luck and asked if the Standards of the two Regiments could be draped above the saddle. The Adjutant agreed and the two Standards of the Life Guards and the Blues and Royals were brought, wrapped in their covers. They were unfurled and hung over the Saddle for me to photograph.

On the two Standards were emblazoned not only the history of the Household Cavalry but the history of the British Army itself. The first Battle Honour – Tangiers - is here as is the last – The Gulf War. Every major conflict for 350 yearswas there.

I have seen the Standards before but here they were, just a few feet away, presented for me to photograph – one of them (the Standard of the Blues and Royals)held by a Gulf War veteran. No time then to be emotional, only to get the exposure right.

But later I thought about what I had seen, how I had been privileged to have unique access to these Standards. Marvellous.

I tried to get some of that feeling into the article, whether I succeeded is for others – but for me I was proud and privileged to see these Standards (and have a private viewing of the Barracks afterwards).

 

[The Lt.]

I'm sure that those of you who've seen the movie know that Stanley Baker played Lieutenant Chard in the movie but are you aware that he owned Chards Victoria Cross from 1972 until his death in 1976. He originally thought it to be what is know as a "cast copy". The Victoria Cross was later proven to be the original after a series of test. Unfortunatly Baker died never knowing he had the original VC......The Lt.

 

[kilted vampire]

On a similar theme I don’t know if any of you saw my article in TSC on Sefton’s Saddle. I had a personal invitation from the Adjutant at the Household Cavalry Barracks to photograph Sefton’s Saddle so I pushed my luck and asked if the Standards of the two Regiments could be draped above the saddle. The Adjutant agreed and the two Standards of the Life Guards and the Blues and Royals were brought, wrapped in their covers. They were unfurled and hung over the Saddle for me to photograph.

On the two Standards were emblazoned not only the history of the Household Cavalry but the history of the British Army itself. The first Battle Honour – Tangiers - is here as is the last – The Gulf War. Every major conflict for 350 yearswas there.

I have seen the Standards before but here they were, just a few feet away, presented for me to photograph – one of them (the Standard of the Blues and Royals)held by a Gulf War veteran. No time then to be emotional, only to get the exposure right.

But later I thought about what I had seen, how I had been privileged to have unique access to these Standards. Marvellous.

I tried to get some of that feeling into the article, whether I succeeded is for others – but for me I was proud and privileged to see these Standards (and have a private viewing of the Barracks afterwards).

That was your article? I loved it! I also love horses! I used to do a great deal of riding in the coastal range. Not to get political but not a great day for the Irish