The War for Southern Independence (1 Viewer)

[VanguardFC007]

Seeing as how all our Napoleonic friends are having a grand old time debating the Emperor, I think we should have our own thread.

So for starters, how about some underappreciated officers not getting the attention they deserve. Both my nominees come from the Western Theater:

Rebel: Patrick Cleburne- "Stonewall of the West" Cleburne always seems to be a forgotten figure in the Southern cause. By far one of the most compitant officers in the Confederacy's Western Armies, Cleburne was famous for using his small force to hold off the overwhelming Union forces; Some of his best work happening on Missionary Ridge. What really gets him forgotten though are some of his views. He saw that the South couldnt maintain its manpower and needed to enlist the slaves in exchange for emancipation. Sadly this point of view was shot down immediately by Jeff Davis himself and Cleburne never rose in rank like he should have.

Union: James Birdseye McPherson- He was a brilliant commander under both Sherman and Grant. His men loved him. Unfortunately he died in the Battle of Atlanta. During his days at The Point, McPherson was Lee's (then superintendant) favorite pupil. Though I am unsure of this story's truth, it is said that when Lee learned of McPherson's death he broke down into tears.

So who are yall nominations for the underappreciated?

 

[theBaron]

We could spend a while debating the name alone. I like War Between the States better.

 

[VanguardFC007]

You are quite right. Ive grown up in Texas so this is the name as it was tought to me. Both my parents are from Georgia and that is how they learned of the war.

 

[Louis Badolato]

You are quite right. Ive grown up in Texas so this is the name as it was tought to me. Both my parents are from Georgia and that is how they learned of the war.

I lived in Texas for 6 years, and I always heard it referred to as "the war of northern aggression". When I was first out of law school I clerked for U.S. District Judge Joe J. Fisher in the Eastern District of Texas (Beaumont). In the same building was District Judge Howell Cobb, the great grandson of the confederate general of the same name.

 

[VanguardFC007]

That name or the one as I was tought is still more appropriate than the "Civil War." As everyones heard countless times...thats just a bad oxymoron.

 

[sceic2]

Regardless of the emotional (traditional) involvement in whatever region of the country you hale and how you try to explain/justify the “The Southern War of Independence" or whatever misuse of the meaning of civil is used to describe the name of the "American Civil War", it is still a "citizens war" by the primary definition of the word civil.

I give you the primary meaning of "civil" from the Merriam-Webster Dictionary -
Civil (civ·il), pronunciation: \ˈsi-vəl\ adjective (adj)
Etymology: Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin civilis, from civis
Date: 14th century
1 a: of or relating to citizens b: of or relating to the state or its citizenry <civil strife>

A war to preserve the Union, a war to free human beings from inhuman servitude is a nobler cause than that of preserving the "independence of the southern states" that advocated one of the American Holocausts. Life expectancy for non-whites during the 17th, 18th, and 19th century was short and usually ended early due to "manifest destiny".

For those who use the terms “War of Northern Aggression, The Southern War of Independence or whatever bastardization you use” it is a symptom of bigotry and inhumanity. Pure and simple. No Grey. It’s as simple as black and white. In very general terms, the North was morally correct and the South was morally corrupt. Right beat wrong and Lincoln knew this. Would that my country had more Presidents like him today instead of the political hacks we have had.

 

[VanguardFC007]

Are you somehow implying that having been tought to think of it as a war for independence I am some how a supporter of slavery or a racist? If such is the case you are guilty of stereotyping. In any case I dont want to see this thread decend into the realm of inappropriateness. It was started to see what officers, both North and South, are appreciated (for my inability to think of a better word at the moment). If you notice my Southern choice was Cleburne and he surely didnt support slavery and nor was he racist. He tried to get the South to emancipate the slaves so they might have the chance to serve.

 

[jazzeum]

Let's please keep it calm and dignified. I don't want to have to pull posts and the like.

 

[VanguardFC007]

Let's please keep it calm and dignified. I don't want to have to pull posts and the like.

I agree and would like to see it return to its original purpose...the discussion of the brave men who served during the war rather than regional names.

 

[Spitfrnd]

...For those who use the terms “War of Northern Aggression, The Southern War of Independence or whatever bastardization you use” it is a symptom of bigotry and inhumanity. Pure and simple. No Grey. It’s as simple as black and white. In very general terms, the North was morally correct and the South was morally corrupt. Right beat wrong and Lincoln knew this. Would that my country had more Presidents like him today instead of the political hacks we have had.

It is interesting how often when someone says something is black and white, it is quite the opposite. With respect, there is much debate about several of these commonly held points. While it was justified by Lincoln and many other Northerners as a war against slavery, there is a well supported view that it was actually a war addressing underlying social and economic tensions that had been building since the first War of Independence. It is also noteworthy that slavery as an institution did not exactly start with the Southern states and certainly was not originally racial in origin. It is also noteworthy that the practice was dying out in the South, just as it was elsewhere in the world at that time. Actually, it is somewhat less than clear whether the war even accelerated the demise of slavery in the South; to me, it is very clear that it was not necessary to achieve it.

Whatever you may believe about the need to end slavery at that time, it is simply not correct to say this was a black and white issue. The North and South both had their share of moral folks and political hacks. While it is easy to say that slavery is morally bad, it is not so easy to say that all acts taken by the North, including creating the basis for the war, were morally good. Thus, to say that the North was morally correct and the South was morally corrupt is to ignore historical facts. Ironically, if you consider the enormous casualties and suffering caused by the war, it is far from clear that Lincoln made the morally correct choice. Of course hindsight is golden and I am willing to concede he thought the war would have been over quickly or avoided altogether but if judged simply by the results, I certainly would not have wanted that on my conscience.

 

[Harrytheheid]

As a Brit, I'd just like to say that this is another of those threads that I find irresistable. It's like an education for me cos I only know the barest facts (as I understand them) concerning the ACW. I do enjoy reading each others points of view here and I hope the exchanges are kept to the same reasonable levels as those that generally featured in the Revisionist History thread.
Facinating stuff.

Thanks
H

 

[VanguardFC007]

Yes its a very fascinating time period for those of us on the west side of the pond. Im hoping this thread will get off the name of the conflict soon and return to its original purpose...

 

[UKReb]

Yes its a very fascinating time period for those of us on the west side of the pond. Im hoping this thread will get off the name of the conflict soon and return to its original purpose...

Harris

I'll do just that.

Your choice of Cleburne is a just one for most of the Reb generals who fought well in the Western Theater did not get the full recognition they deserved.

The main reasons for that is- one: They were led by incompetent commanding generals such as Braxton Bragg; Joe Johnston and the dandy Beauregard all of them retreat generals rather than fight. Only one could have possibly got anywhere near Lee's eminence and that was Sidney Albert Johnston and he was cut down at Shiloh before his star truly ascended, following his death the West was lost to the Confederacy.
And the second reason: The Richmond press controlled the Confederacy's propaganda and were more interested in what was happening in their own back-yard of Virginia, hence that is why today we know more about Lee, Longstreet, Stuart and Jackson rather than Pat Cleburne, Hardee. Polk, Bedford Forrest, Breckinridge and my choice of an unsung Reb General-Fightin' Joe Wheeler

From fighting Indians on the frontier-where he got his nickname- to leading some of the best cavalry in the Confederacy, the only real Reb force to give Sherman a bloody nose on his march to Atlanta- all the way through to cavalry commander in Cuba in 1898 he was a hell of a character and the only man to hold the rank of Major General in both the Confederate Army and the US Army.
And the crafty old devil managed to wangle a higher rank in the Reb Army by telling the US War Department in 1896 that in the final months of the war Davis and his cabinet gave him the rank of Lt General-they hadn't- but no one was left alive to dispute it and if you look at his marker in Arlington you'll see Lt Gen Joseph Wheeler CSA.

I could bore you with dozen of stories about him but my favorite quote from the old geezer was during his Cuba escapade- now well over 60 and raddled with fever he was about to lead his cavalry in a charge on the enemy lines when he shouted across to a young US artillery officer
"Son lay some fire down on those da*n Yankees"
The Artillery officer somewhat puzzled replied
"Sir you mean the Spanish?"
"Dont argue with me son just lay some da*n fire down on 'em'

There is well over 300 books written about JEB Stuart but you'll be hard pushed to find three on Fightin Joe.

Reb

 

[Spitfrnd]

Fascinating and informative as usual Reb. He sounds like a real fire pi**er. I will look for one of those books.

 

[VanguardFC007]

Very impressive that he managed to climb the U.S. ranks after the war. I think I'll need to do some research on General Wheeler. Another fighting cavalry man Im searcing for information on is Ben Grierson, famous for his ride across Mississippi.

At the moment though Ive found an article on one of my favorite artillerists, The Gallant John Pelham. When the war started he was a student at West Point and scheduled to graduate a few weeks after the war started. He instead wrote to Jeff Davis and recieved an appointment as a lieutenant in the artillery of Joe Johnston's army. His battery impressed Jeb Stuart who then provided horse for Pelham to become horse artillery. His greatest moment came at Fredericksburg where he stationed his guns well ahead of the Confederate lines. From there he fired down the flanks of Union lines and slowed them down as they headed into the main rebel fire. He only had 2 guns when he did that. Sadly Pelham died early in 1863 in a cavalry charge. Stonewall Jackson said of Pelham "It is really extraordinary to find such nerve and genius in a mere boy. With a Pelham on each flank I believe I could whip the world."

 

[Capitolron]

I Love Gen Wheeler as well. During my days working in Congress I would find myself always hanging around his statue at late night Sessions.

I was hoping for a pic of the statue - couldn't find one - but, have these pics of the Old House Chamber in the Capitol where the Statues are found from each State - ALABAMA has the one of GEN. WHEELER.

I have also given you the link on the history of Gen. Wheeler who served in both the CSA and again in the USA. Great pic below of Roosevelt next to Wood and Wheeler next to Wood with the White Beard.

Anyone makes it to Washington, DC - I will be glad to take them around the Capitol to see this statue and many other great things.

http://http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_Wheeler

 

[damian]

At the risk of upsetting anybody I will just say that I was cleaning up my house as we are trying to sell, when I came across some old photocopies. I was about to turf them when I had a closer look. I came across some copies of a few famous words. The first letter began "Dear Madam: I have just been shown in the files of the War Department.... and a second one which began "Fourscore and seven years ago... "This got me interested and I hauled out a set of books I bought years ago on the conflict. I read the words of the Battle Hym of the Republic and was moved to say the least. Without picking sides I would say that the North seemed to have the best words of the conflict.
Regards
Damian Clarke

 

[theBaron]

But remember, when word of Lee's surrender reached Washington, and a crowd gathered outside the White House to celebrate, along with a military band, the President was asked for a preference for a tune to hear, and he asked for "Dixie".

 

[damian]

Elvis Presley did a great American Trilogy that included the Battle Hymn and Dixie. It is also a great tune

 

[VanguardFC007]

For those of you who know something of the Spanish-American War... is there a reason for the various uniforms in the picture of Wheeler, Roosevelt, etc.? Something do to with regular and volunteer army maybe?