Thomas Gunn 24th Foot (2 Viewers)

[interloper1951]

After purchasing four of the Thomas Gunn "African Wars" (Rorke's Drift) sets I realized that they lacked the numerals "24" of their epaulettes. How does a major toy soldier manufacturer overlook a detail such as that, especially since they were the most decorated regiment in the history of the British Army for their participation of the Defense of Rorke's Drift, combined with the fact that comparable William Britain, Conte Collectibles, Collectors Showcase and the new First Legion 24th Foot figures all have large readable '24' numerals on the epaulettes of their tunics?

I did indeed contact Thomas Gunn to ask if they had intended this line of figures to represent a greater number of British Troops that fought in the Zulu War, or if it was just an oversight, and I was informed that it was indeed an oversight. Oy vey!

I don't know about the rest of you, but in my mind that is a major stumbling block in terms of wanting to purchase any more of the TG 24th Foot figures. I saw their newest addition to this line, i.e., SFA019A, and it looked as though it did have the "24" on the epaulettes, so I again contacted TG and was told that this figure does indeed have the "24", and was the first figure in the line to feature this correction - so I ordered it. Unfortunately, much to my dismay, upon my receipt of same, I could barely see the "24", even with my regular 1.75+ reading glasses and an additional magnifying glass. YIKES!

I was also told that if I wanted to order and other sets that TG currently had in stock, they they now had the "24" decals available, and could retrofit them onto same. Judging by the extremely small nature of their "24" on this figure's epaulettes, one would need an Electron Microscope to even see the decals, let alone attach them to the figures.

After comparing TG figure SFA019A with all of my Britains, Conte, Collector Showcase and First Legion 24t Foot figures, it became apparent that the reason that the TG "24" numerals are so darn small is because the epaulettes of their figures are roughly half the size of those on the figures of the other mentioned manufacturers.

What I'd like to know, is if any other collectors of 54mm-60mm 24th Foot Zulu War figures noticed the absence of the numerals "24" on the Thomas Gunn figures, and if so, did you consider this to be a problem? Another thing I would like to know is if other manufacturers actually use decals for their "24" epaulettes, or if they are actually sculpted into the figure's overall design?

Aside from the absence of the "24" on the Thomas Gunn 24t Foot figures, they are, in my opinion, extremely well sculpted and expertly painted, and thus just great overall figures except for this one flaw.

If you are a collector of 24th Foot figures from the Zulu War, why don't we get together and try and initiate a drive to get TG to update these figures, not by adding microscopic decal numerals, but actually increasing the the actual size of their epaulettes so that they can easily accommodate "24" numerals so that they are actually visible to the naked eye? PLEASE let me know what you think!!

Another, but much less important feature on the Thomas Gunn 2th Foot figures is that some of them are wearing leather "slouch" hats (fedoras), and, I must admit that I have never, ever seen a photo, painting, or artist's sketch depicting a 24th Foot soldier wearing such a hat, or similarly, have never seen one wearing white (so-called "locally sourced") trousers. Do any of you find this to be a bit disconcerting? If anyone has a photo, drawing or painting showing either of these two items being worn during by a British soldier during the Zulu War I would love to see same to serve as proof that they were in fact utilized from time to time when supplies ran low of Army issued uniforms/hats.

I hope to hear from you with any comments you might have regarding the Thomas Gunn 24th Foot Zulu War figures, and thus thank you in advance should you take the time to provide your input on the subject.

Thanks Guys!!

 

[Guy]

Very easy job to ment this little omission. Use a fine white marker - pigment liner ( 0.05 -0.03mm) and write the number 24 on the figure yourself . Let it dry and fix with some matt varnish and problem solved
guy

 

[villagehorse]

Not a problem for me, the TG as stated are excellent figures and are lost in my army of British, so whilst preferring 24th decal, it's not really essential. Not a fan of the hat or White trousers. TG are great for filling gaps in series and there are still plenty in the Zulu wars. Robin.

 

[Obee]

I wouldn't have thought that you could read '24' in a 1/30 scale figure ....

I saw reproduction uniforms in the Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh in Brecon last year.

This is my image of that uniform



Maybe have a look at this and your other maker's figures and then please post comments about the size etc. because I haven't seen any of the figures, and I'd like to know because I didn't think you get such detail at this scale!

John

 

[villagehorse]

Not with standing the 24th decal issue, these are must have figures.:salute::, Robin.

 

[Guy]

Great figures indeed
guy

 

[wayne556517]

I counted more than 24 feet ^&confuse^&grin

 

[Artillery_crazy]

Hi interloper1951,

I have read with great interest you note below.
Let me add my comments:
(1) As you and many in the forum we have a soft spot for Victorian Wars in special those that took place in South Africa, be them against the Zulu´s or the " band of Velt farmers " that required 250,000 regulars and over 3 years to bring them down....{sm4}...
Regarding your comment as to other manufacturers, I have checked my 24th sets from Tradition of London, Little Legion, Britians and Trophy and can say that, while Tradition of London did not provide that level of detail,Tradition had no reference, Littel Legion will provide a golden disk ( and you imagine the Regimental number and facing on it ) the collar cuffs and sleeve cuffs are always present with the correct facing. Then Britains was the one to provide most details. Not on the regular Zulu matte or gloss series but a special edition that had the 24th marching and the standard bearers plus the escort party....in that case the level of detial was very close to the picture that Obee posted on the sequence of mails in this thread.
To your point I could not recall having seen white trousers at this stage of the campaign, being the most common the dark blue ones. But having said that we may be surprised that locally procured uniform could pop up, we need to remeber that these soldiers were in rags at the battle...not the fancy uniforms on parade ground quality we see in our collections......
(2)The fact that I could not see the actual Regimental number on the epaulettes and collar cuffs is not an issue. Some manufacturers provide the elaborate coat and collar cuff facings as mentioned above.
On a quick run to my reference books I checked Zulu - Isandlwana & Rorke´s Drift 22-23 January 1879 by Ian Knight with Plates by Michael Chappell & Angus McBride ( household guys....) publised by Windrow & Greene and this is an extract from the description of the uniforms: " The foreign service helmet was locally dyed various light khaki shades, the brass regimental plate was ordered removed ( although some have been found at Isandlwana)......as to officers they bear the distinctions of rank on the cuffs and, in certqin case the collar. Subalterns of the 24th seem to have worn only the Regiment´s sphinx collar badge, or no insignia at all....Capitains seem to have worn rank badges or not at personal choice...."
As well pointed out by Obee at the scale we are working at the level of micro painitng required defeats the purpose, unless one expects to assemble his dioramas and picture set ups under a Nuclear Microscope!! Then all details will show up...a consequence of expecting this level of detail will mean that the epaulettes, and collar cuffs will be most likely off scale to allow such level of detail....
To add to that we cannot forget cost, any extra and complex activity specially these heavily human intensive activities add on cost......Not sure one would be willing the extra cost so as to be able to see the Regimental badge in detail or the sphinx....
I will try and load the pictures of the Britains set that I consider that has the most details....
Cheers
A_C

After purchasing four of the Thomas Gunn "African Wars" (Rorke's Drift) sets I realized that they lacked the numerals "24" of their epaulettes. How does a major toy soldier manufacturer overlook a detail such as that, especially since they were the most decorated regiment in the history of the British Army for their participation of the Defense of Rorke's Drift, combined with the fact that comparable William Britain, Conte Collectibles, Collectors Showcase and the new First Legion 24th Foot figures all have large readable '24' numerals on the epaulettes of their tunics?

I did indeed contact Thomas Gunn to ask if they had intended this line of figures to represent a greater number of British Troops that fought in the Zulu War, or if it was just an oversight, and I was informed that it was indeed an oversight. Oy vey!

I don't know about the rest of you, but in my mind that is a major stumbling block in terms of wanting to purchase any more of the TG 24th Foot figures. I saw their newest addition to this line, i.e., SFA019A, and it looked as though it did have the "24" on the epaulettes, so I again contacted TG and was told that this figure does indeed have the "24", and was the first figure in the line to feature this correction - so I ordered it. Unfortunately, much to my dismay, upon my receipt of same, I could barely see the "24", even with my regular 1.75+ reading glasses and an additional magnifying glass. YIKES!

I was also told that if I wanted to order and other sets that TG currently had in stock, they they now had the "24" decals available, and could retrofit them onto same. Judging by the extremely small nature of their "24" on this figure's epaulettes, one would need an Electron Microscope to even see the decals, let alone attach them to the figures.

After comparing TG figure SFA019A with all of my Britains, Conte, Collector Showcase and First Legion 24t Foot figures, it became apparent that the reason that the TG "24" numerals are so darn small is because the epaulettes of their figures are roughly half the size of those on the figures of the other mentioned manufacturers.

What I'd like to know, is if any other collectors of 54mm-60mm 24th Foot Zulu War figures noticed the absence of the numerals "24" on the Thomas Gunn figures, and if so, did you consider this to be a problem? Another thing I would like to know is if other manufacturers actually use decals for their "24" epaulettes, or if they are actually sculpted into the figure's overall design?

Aside from the absence of the "24" on the Thomas Gunn 24t Foot figures, they are, in my opinion, extremely well sculpted and expertly painted, and thus just great overall figures except for this one flaw.

If you are a collector of 24th Foot figures from the Zulu War, why don't we get together and try and initiate a drive to get TG to update these figures, not by adding microscopic decal numerals, but actually increasing the the actual size of their epaulettes so that they can easily accommodate "24" numerals so that they are actually visible to the naked eye? PLEASE let me know what you think!!

Another, but much less important feature on the Thomas Gunn 2th Foot figures is that some of them are wearing leather "slouch" hats (fedoras), and, I must admit that I have never, ever seen a photo, painting, or artist's sketch depicting a 24th Foot soldier wearing such a hat, or similarly, have never seen one wearing white (so-called "locally sourced") trousers. Do any of you find this to be a bit disconcerting? If anyone has a photo, drawing or painting showing either of these two items being worn during by a British soldier during the Zulu War I would love to see same to serve as proof that they were in fact utilized from time to time when supplies ran low of Army issued uniforms/hats.

I hope to hear from you with any comments you might have regarding the Thomas Gunn 24th Foot Zulu War figures, and thus thank you in advance should you take the time to provide your input on the subject.

Thanks Guys!!

 

[kilted vampire]

I do like a fair and balanced report on pieces that the manufacturers put out. A lot of work goes into them and sadly at times things get missed. No one is perfect. Kudos to you for a fair and impartial review.{sm4}

 

[Guy]

I do like a fair and balanced report on pieces that the manufacturers put out. A lot of work goes into them and sadly at times things get missed. No one is perfect. Kudos to you for a fair and impartial review.{sm4}

I second that, thanks for the extra info, well appreciated !!!
guy:smile2:

 

[Dragoon]

Interloper 1951 is absolutely correct. The other major matte figure makers have managed to produce very readable 24 on the shoulder straps.
I also see too many of the TG 24th figures in ''jack boots'' instead of the proper laced shoe and black gaiter. Could be a case of rushing to production and not thoroughly researching the subject.

 

[Gunn Miniatures]

Interloper 1951 is absolutely correct. The other major matte figure makers have managed to produce very readable 24 on the shoulder straps.
I also see too many of the TG 24th figures in ''jack boots'' instead of the proper laced shoe and black gaiter. Could be a case of rushing to production and not thoroughly researching the subject.

We have already offered to add the '24' shoulder numeral decals to any sets that were missing this detail for Interloper, as a special one off to him via an email, already sent prior to this thread being posted, not bad customer service I would say. However the sets should have had them in place in the first instance and this has now been rectified on the new sets just released and of course on all future production.
With regards to the missing gaiters, I am pretty sure most if not all our 24th of foot are wearing gaiters insofar as I can see, unfortunately because they and the boots are both black, its not always easy to distinguish where one starts and the other finishes. Its nothing to do with rushing production or a lack of research.
However from what I remember the British army in SA was as elsewhere, at the end of a very long supply chain and I strongly suspect that when the army issue boots expired, troops would have obtained local footwear to fill in the gaps until official supplies arrived.
The marching style boots (similar to those worn by the German army in WW1) were more than likely to already be in use over there by the colonists, because they could be worn whilst riding a horse and also gave protection against thorns and snake bites.
The same I am sure could be said for trousers, shirts and headdress equipment as well, whatever could be obtained locally would have been put to good use by the troops.
I am no expert and I am sure others will correct me but the Hollywood version of 'Zulu' does not show the troops how they would have really been dressed, unless they had of course marched straight out of a UK depot and into Zululand that day.
With the above in mind I will have a word with the design department and see if we can have more troops in shoes, marching boots and locally made hats etc on our B version figures just to add a little more variety and a little more realism. The A version will of course follow the more traditional text book look, which is of course what some collectors prefer.
At the end of the day I think the more variety the better.
Last but not least I would like to congratulate everybody who has participated in this thread, its been well responded to in a very civilised manner and has been a pleasure to read so far.
Best wishes to one and all.
Vicki Lucas
Gunn Miniatures

 

[Dragoon]

Say what you will, but the black gaiters came with two straps and buckles. Many of your figures are missing this detail in the sculpting, so they look like boots.

 

[Dragoon]

Also, The 2nd 24th came directly from Britain just prior to the 1879 campaign so there would have little need to replace their footwear with colonial stock. The 1st 24th were veteran campaigners in South Africa, so as you say, worn out equipment might be replaced with whatever is on hand.

 

[interloper1951]

First, and foremost, I would like to take this opportunity to personally to thank everyone who took the time to both read and respond, with generally well thought out responses, to my original thread regarding the absence of the epaulettes numerals "24" on the exquisitely sculpted and painted Thomas Gunn 24th Foot figures from the Zulu War.

Additionally, I would like to extend my gratitude to Ms. Lucas, of Thomas Gunn Miniatures, for correctly stating that their firm did indeed offer to upgrade any of 24th Foot figures that remain in "their" current stock by correcting their omission of the "24" numerals on the figure's epaulettes through the addition of a decal.

Unfortunately, the problem here, however, is two fold: (1) TG no longer has sets SFA007 or SFA007B in stock (although they can still be purchased from several U.S. dealers). (2) Also, there still remains the problem with the proposed upgrade, given the fact that the epaulettes themselves are in actuality much too narrow to accommodate the "24" numerals in a size which would be easily readable with the naked eye.

A further complication is that I already own sets SFA003A, SFA002, SFA003B & SFA002B. Therefore, the offer to retrofit these sets with the addition of the "24" epaulette decals would present a VERY major logistical problem, to say the least. Just a thought here, but, perhaps Thomas Gunn could make the "24" decals available to those collectors who have in fact already purchased their sets lacking the "24" on their epaulettes. In the alternative, perhaps Thomas Gunn could determine if any of their retail dealers, especially those in the USA, have the capability of performing the epaulette upgrade, and then make that information available on both their website and in this forum.

I commend "Dragoon" for confirming the fact that "almost" all of the other military miniature manufactures currently producing matte finish 24th Foot Zulu War figures, i.e., Britain's, Collectors Showcase, Conte, and First Legion have in fact managed to incorporate a very readable "24" on their figures' epaulettes. The two exceptions to this fact being only the figures produced by Thomas Gunn Miniatures and John Jenkins Designs.

As for "Guy's" suggestion of an having the average Joe personally add the numerals "24" through the use of an ultra fine point white pigment paint pen, I doubt that most collectors possess the ability to do so, unless, of course, they were among those few who have access to Gorton Machine Corporation's engraving machines which managed to engrave the entire 300 words of the Lord’s Prayer on the head of a pin.

I also concur with "villagehorse" in that the Thomas Gunn 24th Foot figures are a "must have", and that they do indeed do a tremendous job of producing figures that fill the gaps left by the other major manufacturers. It just would have been much better if the figures, from their inception, had included very "readable" "24" numerals on the shoulder patches of their 24th Foot range.

Likewise, I want to congratulate "Artillery crazy" for his very detailed and informative narrative on several topics relating to both the Zulu War itself, and the companies who have ventured to manufacture figures which represent the men who fought in same. Similarly, I want to thank "Obee" for providing the brilliant photo of the reproduction 24th foot uniform which is apparently on display in the Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh in Brecon, Wales, United Kingdom, which is certainly something I would very much like to see in person should I ever venture across the pond.

Lastly, I'd like to say that while participation in a blog is a completely new experience for me, I found the results to be both astounding and extremely informative... and it's very reassuring to know that other adults (actually big kids) share my passion for the collecting of toy soldiers/military miniatures.

Best regards to all,

Pugilist1951

=========================================================================================

We have already offered to add the '24' shoulder numeral decals to any sets that were missing this detail for Interloper, as a special one off to him via an email, already sent prior to this thread being posted, not bad customer service I would say. However the sets should have had them in place in the first instance and this has now been rectified on the new sets just released and of course on all future production.
With regards to the missing gaiters, I am pretty sure most if not all our 24th of foot are wearing gaiters insofar as I can see, unfortunately because they and the boots are both black, its not always easy to distinguish where one starts and the other finishes. Its nothing to do with rushing production or a lack of research.
However from what I remember the British army in SA was as elsewhere, at the end of a very long supply chain and I strongly suspect that when the army issue boots expired, troops would have obtained local footwear to fill in the gaps until official supplies arrived.
The marching style boots (similar to those worn by the German army in WW1) were more than likely to already be in use over there by the colonists, because they could be worn whilst riding a horse and also gave protection against thorns and snake bites.
The same I am sure could be said for trousers, shirts and headdress equipment as well, whatever could be obtained locally would have been put to good use by the troops.
I am no expert and I am sure others will correct me but the Hollywood version of 'Zulu' does not show the troops how they would have really been dressed, unless they had of course marched straight out of a UK depot and into Zululand that day.
With the above in mind I will have a word with the design department and see if we can have more troops in shoes, marching boots and locally made hats etc on our B version figures just to add a little more variety and a little more realism. The A version will of course follow the more traditional text book look, which is of course what some collectors prefer.
At the end of the day I think the more variety the better.
Last but not least I would like to congratulate everybody who has participated in this thread, its been well responded to in a very civilised manner and has been a pleasure to read so far.
Best wishes to one and all.
Vicki Lucas
Gunn Miniatures

 

[Gunn Miniatures]

First, and foremost, I would like to take this opportunity to personally to thank everyone who took the time to both read and respond, with generally well thought out responses, to my original thread regarding the absence of the epaulettes numerals "24" on the exquisitely sculpted and painted Thomas Gunn 24th Foot figures from the Zulu War.

Additionally, I would like to extend my gratitude to Ms. Lucas, of Thomas Gunn Miniatures, for correctly stating that their firm did indeed offer to upgrade any of 24th Foot figures that remain in "their" current stock by correcting their omission of the "24" numerals on the figure's epaulettes through the addition of a decal.

Unfortunately, the problem here, however, is two fold: (1) TG no longer has sets SFA007 or SFA007B in stock (although they can still be purchased from several U.S. dealers). (2) Also, there still remains the problem with the proposed upgrade, given the fact that the epaulettes themselves are in actuality much too narrow to accommodate the "24" numerals in a size which would be easily readable with the naked eye.

A further complication is that I already own sets SFA003A, SFA002, SFA003B & SFA002B. Therefore, the offer to retrofit these sets with the addition of the "24" epaulette decals would present a VERY major logistical problem, to say the least. Just a thought here, but, perhaps Thomas Gunn could make the "24" decals available to those collectors who have in fact already purchased their sets lacking the "24" on their epaulettes. In the alternative, perhaps Thomas Gunn could determine if any of their retail dealers, especially those in the USA, have the capability of performing the epaulette upgrade, and then make that information available on both their website and in this forum.

I commend "Dragoon" for confirming the fact that "almost" all of the other military miniature manufactures currently producing matte finish 24th Foot Zulu War figures, i.e., Britain's, Collectors Showcase, Conte, and First Legion have in fact managed to incorporate a very readable "24" on their figures' epaulettes. The two exceptions to this fact being only the figures produced by Thomas Gunn Miniatures and John Jenkins Designs.

As for "Guy's" suggestion of an having the average Joe personally add the numerals "24" through the use of an ultra fine point white pigment paint pen, I doubt that most collectors possess the ability to do so, unless, of course, they were among those few who have access to Gorton Machine Corporation's engraving machines which managed to engrave the entire 300 words of the Lord’s Prayer on the head of a pin.

I also concur with "villagehorse" in that the Thomas Gunn 24th Foot figures are a "must have", and that they do indeed do a tremendous job of producing figures that fill the gaps left by the other major manufacturers. It just would have been much better if the figures, from their inception, had included very "readable" "24" numerals on the shoulder patches of their 24th Foot range.

Likewise, I want to congratulate "Artillery crazy" for his very detailed and informative narrative on several topics relating to both the Zulu War itself, and the companies who have ventured to manufacture figures which represent the men who fought in same. Similarly, I want to thank "Obee" for providing the brilliant photo of the reproduction 24th foot uniform which is apparently on display in the Regimental Museum of The Royal Welsh in Brecon, Wales, United Kingdom, which is certainly something I would very much like to see in person should I ever venture across the pond.

Lastly, I'd like to say that while participation in a blog is a completely new experience for me, I found the results to be both astounding and extremely informative... and it's very reassuring to know that other adults (actually big kids) share my passion for the collecting of toy soldiers/military miniatures.

Best regards to all,

Pugilist1951

=========================================================================================

Interloper: I would be more than happy to send out the decals so you can retrospectively fit them to the figures you have in your collection.
Just give me the green light and I will obtain some from our factory.
I have also asked our factory manager to see if we can make the epaulettes wider so that a bigger '24' can be placed - now this has got to make everybody happy!
Dragoon: I will speak with our painters at the factory and make sure the buckle detail is painted silver from now on so there is no confusion as to these being 'Jack Boots' from now on. This conversation also gave me the idea of painting some of the gaiters a different colour on our B version so the detail would be more obvious. Thank you for your input.

For those of you looking for prints and pictures of Zulu War British army equipment you can look at www.britishbattles.com. Unfortunately it looks like the owner of the site has sold out to all and sundry who wish to sell you something, you just need to zone out from all the adverts, like one does with demanding kids sometimes!
There you will see Brits wearing brown trousers, brown gaiters, jack boots and even some with no gaiters. I am not saying the author is correct with all the information in these prints, but I do believe corduroy trousers in whatever colour available were popular with locals and soldiers because of their durability.

Nice photos by the way Village Horse of your collection of Lancers, there is another in the works as we have just about sold out of both here.

Great thread started by Interloper, now if we can get President Putin and the rest of Western world to all act like you gentlemen in this thread, the crisis in the Crimea and Ukraine would be over within 24 hours!

Kind Regards Vicki

 

[Jack]

For those of you looking for prints and pictures of Zulu War British army equipment you can look at www.britishbattles.com. Unfortunately it looks like the owner of the site has sold out to all and sundry who wish to sell you something, you just need to zone out from all the adverts, like one does with demanding kids sometimes!
Kind Regards Vicki

Zoning out demanding kids ... sound like a valuable skill for a TS manufacturer with a forum presence!{sm4}

 

[kilted vampire]

Well I for one was quite happy with my 24th Bugler. Until this guy ruined for me by pointing out this grievous error! I am now completely disappointed and am now sulking with my coffee! I like that little doggie and now......... well now I just can't stand to look at them with their little bare shoulder tabs.(sniff)^&grin^&grin^&grin

 

[tryfon]

Great figure, you cant see the this detail with the naked eye, the figures are great for 54mm, would be different for large scale models, but 54mm
there great, thanks TG
Trevor

 

[Dragoon]

Say what you will, but the black gaiters came with two straps and buckles. Many of your figures are missing this detail in the sculpting, so they look like boots.

Seems I rushed to post without doing MY research. - Have been finding many examples of Zulu War gaiters that laced up the sides and had no straps & buckles. So, Big Apology to the good people at Thomas Gunn. - My bad.