tiger 1 n.332 colours question (3 Viewers)

stefanuccio

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hallo guys
i apologise for repating the tread but imo is better to be on this forum
I have a tamiya kit of a tiger 1 n.332 of the pz.abt 503 in russia 1943
the instruction tell that the colour of this tanks is overall german grey [we are already in russia 1943]
Also the turret numbers 332 are in red colour with white outlines
Is the overall german grey colour and the red/white colours of the numbers correct?
thanks very much in advance for your reply
regards
stefano

www.1999.co.jp/eng/image/10067574n/40/1
also go to
www.alanhamby.com/gallery4.shtml
 
This picture is one of a series of pictures from a recovery training exercise. "Tigers in Combat I" (Wolfgang Schneider) dates the event Oct 4, 1943. It is difficult to determine the color of the tank since it is dusty and weathered but if one uses the black balkenkreuz as a reference the color does not appear to be RAL7021 "Swarzgrau". If this picture is dated correctly then the vehicle should have a base color of RAL7028 "Dunkelgelb"

Numbers should be black with white outlines.

tiger_venemaal.jpg
 
Hi There,

Not sure if this will answer your question or make more of them. But it seems that there was quite a bit of variation by unit on paint schemes. Here is what I have on it: In June of 1940 a general order was issued that stipulated all Panzers were to be painted dark grey (Dunkelgrau). This order was still in effect when the Tigers were initially deployed in August 1942, thus the very first Tiger I's were painted dark grey. In February 1943, a general order came down to change the base coat from dark grey to tan (Dunkelgelb nach Muster). Crews were issued cans of red brown (Rotbraun) and dark olive green (Olivgruen) to use in creating camouflage patterns. Some tigers were coated with the Zimmerit anti-magnetic mine coating starting in July 1943. This paste was applied in recognizable grooved patterns and the paint was applied over the top of the coating. Vehicles coated with Zimmerit have a distinctive rough look to their surface. Camouflage patterns varied from unit to unit, as did the placement and coloring of the vehicle numbers.

As for the numbers I have seen white outline red, or black or black outing the basic Grey or other colours that had been applied. The one consistant feature I have seen is the black cross out lined in white.

Hope this helps

Dave
 
The first three pictures show s.H.Pz.Abt.503 tanks in early 1943 presumably in RAL7021 "Schwarzgrau". Note that initially the units numbers were white with a thin black outline and the unit emblem was present on the hull front.

sHPzAbt503_2.jpg


sHPzAbt503_3.jpg


Later on the unit emblem was removed.

sHPzAbt503_1.jpg


Here are a number of pictures of Tiger 332:

sHPzAbt503_332_1.jpg


sHPzAbt503_332_2.jpg


sHPzAbt503_332_3.jpg


sHPzAbt503_332_4.jpg


sHPzAbt503_332_5.jpg


sHPzAbt503_332_6.jpg


sHPzAbt503_332_7.jpg
 
hallo Frank and Dave thanks very much for your reply
Frank
thanks in particular for the competent reply and for the fantastic pics you sent me
Would it be better in terms of accuracy for me to let this tank in german grey overall without adding any number or insigna as if it is awaiting delivery?
Is the tank model accurate to depict an early version in german grey prior assignement?
thanks for your reply
stefano
 
If you like the grey version then you could consider tracking down some 1/35 decals from the appropriate period.

I Googled "503 tiger decals" and came up with these after a brief search:

222 on this sheet

http://www.techmod.pl/afv-35/35005-pzkpfwvi-tiger-ausfe-early-production-model

111, 241 or 243 on this sheet

http://www.hlj.com/product/MYK06043

both of these also had the 503 unit emblem

I'm not a modeler so I don't know which brand of decals are good and which are not. Perhaps someone else can comment.
 
hi Frank
thanks very much for your effort very much appreciated
My tank is the tiger 1 tamiya in a 1/16 scale sorry i should have specify it
Decals are not available were i live
the best that i can do no to interfere with the accuracy is to let it in an overall german grey awaiting delivery or unspecified unit

According to my sources tiger 1 and 2 combat tattics by t.jantz on page 64
operational history,
the 2nd.kompanie of the pz.abt 502 joined the pz.abt.503 on the eastern front on january 12 1943
That day it became the pz.abt 503 3rd.kompanie by orders dated 10 febbrury 1943
It had by then 9 tigers
It arrived on a load train at the end of january 1943 prior to the official time of colour paint scheme changing order february 1943
I am sure that at this time were possibly still in the overall german grey althoght i cannot commit myself on the colour of the turret numbers

Another problem could be the stowage bin at the back of the turret but here is stated by T.Jentz that the 1st. and 2nd.kompanie tigers were outfitted with stowage bin of the panzer 3 as this tigers were pre-production
The 3rd.kompanie stowage bin were layed out on theyr tigers as they were produced in 1942

What do you make of this?
thanks very much for your reply
stefano
 
hi frank
what is the date of this pics you sent me about the tank 332?
thanks
stefano
 
The following comes from Alfred Rubbel

Transportation to the southern sector of the Eastern Front began on 21 December 1942. Detraining from the railroad transports which had been routed for express movement took place at Proletarskaja. The war began for schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in the early days of January 1943 along the Manytsch River.

Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 had also been organized at nearly the same time as schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503. It also had only two tank companies. In the fall of 1942 it had been commited to action in the northern sector of the Eastern Front with a Headquarters Company, a Maintenance Company and only one tank Company. The 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 had been held back at Fallingbostel. In December of 1942 the 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 loaded onto rail transport to Heeresgruppe Don. On arrival it was attached to 17. Panzerdivision and saw it's first employment in the Kalmuck Steppes southeast of Rostov under it's company commander Hauptmann Lange.

The 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 possessed a fairly good capability to operate on its own. In order to be logistically self sufficient it had been provided with the requisite additional elements. The 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung would have liked to keep that status. For reasons of practicality and necessity the 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung was consoldiated with schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 as the 3.Kompanie at the beginning of January 1943. Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503, of course, was also employed on the Kalmuck Steppes at the time. The OKH decision was not greeted with a lot of enthusiasm by the company.

With that addition, schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 became the first Tiger battalion to be brought to full strength according to the 1943 standard of organization.


Tigers in Combat I (Wolfgang Schneider) puts the 2./s.H.Pz.Abt.502 at the following locations at the dates indicated:

05./06.01.43 - Detrainment in PROLETARSKAJA

07.01.43 - Attachment to 17th Panzerdivision. Relocation to SSUNGAR in the KUBERLE region (107 km road march without breakdown, with a maintenance stop every 20 km.)

08.01.43 - Counterattack with one company of Panzerregiment 39 on OSSERSKIJ and NISH-SSEREB JAKOWKA. 2 tanks and 8 anti-tank guns destroyed.

09.01.43 - Enemy positions with 5 Pak destroyed near ILOWASKIJ then attack on BRATSKIJ, 2 Pak knocked out. March back to PROLETARSKAJA

10.01.43 - Defense near BUDJENNY, 1 KV-1, 3 T-34s, 7 T-60s and 2 Pak knocked out. The operational tanks (3 Tigers and 6 Pz.IIIs) are attached to 16th Infantriedivision (mot).

14.01.43 - The Tigers cover the disengagement of 16th ID (mot) (3km from NOWO SSADKOWSKIJ to KAMAROW) and rejoin the company at PROLETARSKAJA the following day.

16./17.01.43 - The Pz.IIIs in covering positions at STALINSKI-PUD. Order to move to ROSTOV.

22.01.43 - Arrival at ROSTOV and integration into schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 as the 3rd company.



The Tigers arriving from from 2./s.H.Pz.Abt.502 were most likely still painted RAL7021 "Schwarzgrau" although field improvisations are possible. 502 numbering consisted of white outlines.

Refer back to picture 1 of the series I posted above. Note the Pz.III stowage bin.

"Tigers in Combat I" (Wolfgang Schneider) dates the series of 332 pictures Oct 4, 1943. I don't have a second source to corroborate this date though.
 
WOW Frank
A real great post
Thanks very much for the informations
I have been observing the pics of tank 332
this seems to be a early production tiger possibly late 1942 or early 1943
it has the proper stowage bin ,feifel filters ,tool box.spade,vent system behind the loader hatch etc.
The numerical system of the 3rd kompanie is also different from the others companies and with two balkenkreutz a the back of the turret the numbers are differet or might have been changed at some point
I think that tank 332 is still really in german grey overall as i have noticed that this tank has no camo and the highest part of the turret were dust is less obvious the colour is seen better
The numbers can be either red/white or black/white difficult to make up
What do you make of this 332 tank colour?
thank you
stefano
 
hi Frank
about the dates of the tiger 332
have a look at this link under pz.abt.503
you will see tank 332 pics but it is dated january 1943 if i dont mistake
www.tiif.de
stefano
 
The numbers for all Tigers in the Abteilung started out white with a fine black outline. Later on this transitioned to black with with white outlilne. This information comes from "Tigers in Combat 1" (Wolfgang Schneider). All the pictures I've seen seem to support this proposition.

Based on the photographic evidence I can't say what color 332 was, I can only speculate using shades and regulations as a guide. The only colors we can be relatively certain about are the black and the white used for the balkenkreuz. If we make the assumption that the balkenkreuz wasn't painted over top of dust then the contrast of the black relative to the surrounding area is higher than I would expect if the base color was RAL7021.

As I said though I can't provide a definitive answer so ultimately the decision is up to you.
 

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