Tired of waiting.... (1 Viewer)

[gettysburgbuff]

Several years ago I mentioned the fact that there were no limbers and caissons being made with standing six team horses to be used in conjunction with the cannons and artillery detachments that Britains produces. If anyone wants to produce an accurate rendition of an artillery battery in action, one does not have the conveyances to back up the guns on the field. Also, how about making more figures without knapsacks for a change. With few exceptions, most defenders had stowed away those things and did not carry them when in static positions. It is hard to fathom union infantry on Cemetery Ridge awaiting Pickett's men with full knapsacks on. The 20th Maine did not have knapsacks on when they defended Little Round Top.

 

[Obee]

Its interesting that you want to limber and caissons to go with the guns in action, because they wouldn't normally be on the gun line ....

What happens is the guns are brought onto the gun line, unhitched then the drivers take the team away to the wagon lines back from the gun line so that they are out of range of counter battery fire, or small arms fire.
ACW limbers had a detachable box so that the ammo box could be left at the gun, and the limber and team retired.

If any horses are wounded/killed, that would mean the guns cannot be moved, and so possibly lost with an enemy advance.

When the order to retire is called, the team races up, hitches up the guns, and then departs (hastily )

The caisson would be used to bring up ammunition (shot and powder) but be held in the wagon line in reserve, for the retirement, or to go back to the storage are for more ammo.

By all means, I'd love to see a team of 6 horse produced, either at the halt, walking or galloping, but the gun would need to be hitched on and also some riders on the limber, and mounted gunners on their own horses to make a full team. Hopefully makers had make sets, like lead horse, and brake horse, in pairs so that you could have 2, 4 or 6 horse teams, depending on your budget, display area, or pose, much like John Jenkins has done with his FIW figures.

John

 

[farmertony]

As always,with things artillery,John(Obee) is spot on in his comments.JJD has a limber for the British guns in his 1812 War series.Also an ammunition wagon using the same horse team.The trouble with these is that the sets become quite large and there for quite expensive.First Legion has indicated it will bring out a French Napoleonic limber and team in the future.Several years ago Frontline had ACW limbers and teams complete with riders and gunners,both Union and Confederate.

 

[gettysburgbuff]

Nothing could be further from the truth when one suggests that limbers and caissons did not have horses tethered to them while the guns were in action or that limber boxes were dragged to the front beside the guns. That is is not artillery protocol during the Civil War under existing field artillery tactics and was also not borne out in actual practice in "action front". For example, during the artillery duel on Cemetery Hill at Gettysburg on the late afternoon of July 2, a shell from Latimer's guns on Benner's Hill struck a federal caisson from Stewart's Battery, causing the limber to explode and the horses run off. A post-battle photo of the Trostle Farm area definitely shows dead horses all around from Biglow's 9th Mass. Battery. That battery had been located on a line farther south until it had to retire by pulling the guns back and firing as they withdrew. Caissons and limbers were with the battery on that advanced line and retreated with it. While the guns were withdrawn by prolong, the limbers and horses were with it on that advanced line sufficient to transport ammunition used by the guns as they withdrew. Upon reaching the farm, Biglow was forced to remain to stave off Confederates who nearly surrounded the battery. The horses were targeted by the Confederates to immobilize the guns, but some guns got away pulled out by limbers. The mode of transportation of the guns in the field were the limbers which had to close by and ready to go with horses tethered to the poles. On July 1 at Gettysburg during the fighting at the Seminary, Col. Wainwright's artillery line there had the limbers ready to be drawn to the front to immediately get away. There was no time to reinstall limber boxes or get the horses attached. Cannoneers could not have walked back 150 to 200 yards behind the guns to get ammunition. I can also relate to this from practical experience as a Civil War reenactor, serving with an artillery unit, that the protocol is that the horses and limbers are right with the guns. The fact that one often doesn't see it occur during reenactments is that many batteries do not have limbers or caissons to accompany their guns to an event, let alone the number of horses necessary on hand to transport them. This can often give a skewed impression that the boxes were brought to the guns and that horses were off in the distance somewhere. To re-create an authentic artillery diorama, it is mandatory to have the limbers and horses along with caissons at the prescribed distance from the guns. I realize that this is expensive to create and sell profitably by toy soldier manufacturers, but perhaps some stalwarts could purchase at least one set to show what it was actually like in their displays. As far as Front Line is concerned, its scale is not compatible with Britains in my opinion and so the use of those earlier limber and teams (which, by the way, were not stationary horses but rather galloping ones) would not work with the concept I am describing.

 

[Jefman]

This is an excellent thread that you started. I like the fact that you are articulating and explaining the deployment and use of limbers and caissons in actual ACW battlefield situations. It is not out of bounds to coax and motivate a manufacturer to design and produce ancillary products to their toy soldier line to help explain and educate with historical accuracy. I think WB is the perfect company to ask to extend their offerings. The WB team, based on reading previous threads, seems very much into historical accuracy being living history buffs and adhering to excellent presentations of their products in packaged vignettes and dioramas complete with scenic products and other accessories. Many an ACW WB collector has begged and pleaded for the elusive limbers and caissons. They would most certainly top off their extensive line of both Union and Confederate horse and field artillery...by far the most comprehensive offerings of ACW artillery depictions in the toy soldier universe by releasing these hotly desired and needed accessories. I would add that the ACW products that WB depict are well sculpted figurines, historically accurate and well painted with minimal creative license and variations that make the whole experience so worthwhile. Furthermore the Hudson and Allen line is a home run. The evolved concept of adding additional accessories and products to the figurines themselves has led the way for the whole industry to evolve in a very stimulating way. I share your opinion and desire for similar rollouts for my passion which is ACW cavalry...the third and somewhat underserved cog in the WB ACW branch spoke. Unlike the infantry and artillery WB has only give us cavalry buffs just limited morsels of excellent depictions but down the line I think Ken Osen and crew will manufacture and release some excellent cavalry additions. To collect the ACW WB inventory is a fun hobby albeit a test in ones patience.

 

[Terp152]

Gettysburgbuff is quite correct when he states artillery "in battery" position would have the limbers and caissons deployed to the rear with horse teams in place. This is depicted in the Photographic History of the Civil War, Vol 5, pages 14 and 15 (and others) showing Battery A , 4th US Artillery in Feb 1864.

I have had several conversations with Ken Olsen over the last several yrs and know WB plans to release limbers and caissons with standing teams, including casualty figs. These have been delayed for reasons not known to me but believe they will come in due time. Looking fwd to when that occurs and hopefully in the not too distant future. Chris

In the mean time:

 

[gettysburgbuff]

I, too, had a conversation regarding this issue with Mr. Olson probably 4 years ago when he was at a shop in Gettysburg promoting Britains. At that time, he indicated that the company would be coming out with something in the near future. I also mentioned the fact that we Civil War diorama hobbyists are limited in our depictions when the figures practically always have knapsacks on in action poses. Can you imagine federal infantry lolling around on July 3 on Cemetary Ridge in the heat with full packs on, just waiting for the artillery duel and subsequent attack by Pickett? It didn't happen that way. That's why my dioramas are not specific to any one battle but are generic representations. If I have federal infantry fighting with knapsacks on, they might be coming into action from the roadway at the Wilderness, for example. There are certainly other instances of men fighting with knapsacks on, particularly when coming into action immediately as was the Iron Brigade at Gettysburg on July 1. But you can't convince me that depicting the action on Little Round Top or Culp's Hill, for example, is OK with soldiers in marching gear. It just doesn't work.

 

[gettysburgbuff]

.... The WB team, based on reading previous threads, seems very much into historical accuracy being living history buffs and adhering to excellent presentations of their products in packaged vignettes and dioramas complete with scenic products and other accessories....

Sometimes the accuracy leaves something to be desired, though. The set of Pa Bucktails produced by the company shows the men holding Sharps rifles (shorter than Springfields or Enfields) which is entirely correct as representing the 13th PA Reserves (42nd PA) at Gettysburg which was modeled on Dale Gallon's print of their service at the end of the fighting on July 2 in the area of the Wheatfield. However, the colors held by one of those figures denotes 149th PA Infantry which were the bogus (or false) Bucktails of Roy Stone's Brigade that fought on July 1 west of town and were not part of the Pennsylvania Reserves. Such confusion could have been remedied with more studied research.

 

[7th OVI]

This is a good thread, I have also requested limbers and caissons along with other figures over the years. The good news is that Ken and Erika do listen, the bad news is that it takes time and their resources are limited. I have no idea when we will see them. They have responded with orderlies, civilians, casualties, stacks of arms, stacks of knapsacks, mounted officers and also a few surprises such as the telegraph set over the years. Most of these were requests we have made for dioramas. Even a few Western looking troops have been mixed in to my surprise. Hopefully the caissons and limbers are in the near future. As far as accuracy, I believe the PA figures in question were before Ken and his team took over the sculpting and historical integrity of the figures. I also believe that WB's current line of figures are very accurate in their depiction of ACW soldiers and have few peers in this respect. Knapsacks and blanket rolls or no knapsacks and blanket rolls. As far as the use of knapsacks, I have seen references to them being worn as well as them being left behind. I know the 7th Ohio lost all of their knapsacks at one engagement in 1862 and swore to take them with them every where they went regardless of the circumstances in the future. I think that consistency is key so that we can mass figures for dioramas with a sense of cohesion. That is just my opinion. All the best Chris