Unknown facts or decisions in WW2 ? (1 Viewer)

[Poppo]

We know today everything or almost about WW2: many history books have been written by generals, witnesses, journalists about ww2.
In the 90ies, after the fall of the Berlin wall, we have known the last secret facts about WW2 like the precise story of the decrypting of the german secret code system ENIGMA and the opening of a part of the sovietic ( NKVD, GPU) archives. These last archives show us the systematic war crimes committed by the sovietic troops against german, polish etc. civilians; especially, Antony Beevor studied these archives and wrote interesting books like " Stalingrad" and " Berlin 1955: the downfall". Actually, books explaining the russian crimes were already written by german writers just after WW2.
At the end of the 90ies , Putin recognized that the thousands of polish officiers in "Katyn" forest had been shot in the head by the NKVD men and not by the nazi ,as URSS had said till that moment ( and few years ago the wonderful and touching polish film "Katyn" about those facts was made ).

We can say that the historic study of WW2 has been substantially finished at the end of the 90.

In my opinion, one of the biggest questions about WW2 is: was Stalin going to attack Germany? And consequently, if yes, Hitler' s attack to Russia in june 41, partially justifies the german dictator.

I studied many german writers' books, and in my opinion Stalin was going to attack Germany( even if documents haven' t been found): he massed many divisions just on the german borders. But we must also say that those russian divisions were not ready to attack, in fact, they were truly surprised by the german attack, and didn' t react in a decent way to it.
In effect, Stalin believed in the Molotov-Ribentropp peace pact between URSS and Germany and believed that Hitler wouldn' t brake it. Stalin was waiting that the "nazi" Germany and the "capitalistic" Great Britain would have weaken fighting with each other, and then attack them both and invade Europe. He invaded Europe, even if in a different way...

 

[waynepoo]

Interesting question to ask and I have no doubt there is no answer. Stalin trusted no-one and believed the best solution to all human problems was death and this belief has been proven by the amount of human beings who died as a result of his rule. I have read that he knew war with Nazi Germany was inevitable but he saw this war happening about 1945 and no sooner. As for attacking before then? well he was no fool even though wrong in his belief of the power of the Red Army in 1940/41, any thought of attacking Hitler first is doubtfull as even he knew how weak the Red Army was after his purge of it's officer corps. We must remember that Satlin always put his position ahead of all other considerations as he believed that he embodied the Soviet Union and without his leadership the state would fail. A good read for all interested in Stalin and his rule is ''Stalin - The Court of the Red Tsar'' by Simon Sebag Montefiore.
Wayne.

 

[Mitch]

A few years back there were some documents found that showed that Russian intentions at a later date was to attack Germany to avoid the inevitable German attack. There was a discussion a while back about it on here. The soviet/German pact obfuscated the intentions of both sides but, Stalin believed he had controlled or tamed the germans which, as we now know was a mistake.

As for knowing everything about WWII I am not sure. there are many stated facts in books and such that have recently been shown to be nonsense and wrong that have been compounded by many historians for many years. As new documents are viewed in archives in Germany and Russia for the first times new facts will be found. Its only whether one will believe these new points or, try to perpetuate the myths that are accepted as fact today. Possibly the biggest but, I only use as an exemplar is the complete incorrect description of Kursk. everything from units, weather and, available forces has been exaggerated for many years. there are some that still believe the Russians drove their tanks in suicide style attacks at German tanks!!!!!
Mitch

 

[PanzerAce1944]

I would think it would be safe to say if Hitler did not attack half of the world, the war would not have possibly even got started at least as far as Europe goes. The Japanese Empire may have carried out their plans anyway. I think Italy and Japan followed suit as part of the Axis powers, once Germany went after everyone. If Hitler would have stopped with annexing Austria and the Sudetenland (part of Czechoslovakia)and stopped there, not carried out the Holocaust and attack and invade the rest of Europe he may have been one of the greatest leaders that Germany ever had. His decision to invade Poland and start WWII put everything down the drain at that point.It's a travesty that the Allied powers did not reach the death camps until the very end of the war. Did Roosevelt,Churchill and Stalin turn a blind eye as I have read several accounts of their knowledge of the existance of the camps as early as 1942.

 

[Mitch]

Hitler was seen as Germany's saviour but, he knew what he wanted and, it was never going to stop regaining the territory possibly wrongly stripped from them after the first war.

As for the camps its been well documented that the allies knew well in advance of what was happening and, there was much discussion of attacking Auschwitz/Birkenau with allied bombers. Don't know about turning a blind eye but, there was mass disbelief that the reports and the numbers dying could be true so, apart from bombing which, may not have done anything really to help the situation. the allies got to the camps as quickly as they could on the ground.
Mitch

 

[Poppo]

A few years back there were some documents found that showed that Russian intentions at a later date was to attack Germany to avoid the inevitable German attack. There was a discussion a while back about it on here. The soviet/German pact obfuscated the intentions of both sides but, Stalin believed he had controlled or tamed the germans which, as we now know was a mistake.

As for knowing everything about WWII I am not sure. there are many stated facts in books and such that have recently been shown to be nonsense and wrong that have been compounded by many historians for many years. As new documents are viewed in archives in Germany and Russia for the first times new facts will be found. Its only whether one will believe these new points or, try to perpetuate the myths that are accepted as fact today. Possibly the biggest but, I only use as an exemplar is the complete incorrect description of Kursk. everything from units, weather and, available forces has been exaggerated for many years. there are some that still believe the Russians drove their tanks in suicide style attacks at German tanks!!!!!
Mitch

Sure, in kursk battle there have been exagerations on both sides...But as usual the biggest ones come from the sovietic side (EX. that almost all german tanks were destroyed while for instance the "elephants" were destroyed only at 40 per cent).

Regarding the suicidal russian tank attacks, I never heard about this in Kursk battle, but for sure the suicidal style attack was usual for the russian generals who had no respect for their men' s life.

 

[Poppo]

I would think it would be safe to say if Hitler did not attack half of the world, the war would not have possibly even got started at least as far as Europe goes. The Japanese Empire may have carried out their plans anyway. I think Italy and Japan followed suit as part of the Axis powers, once Germany went after everyone. If Hitler would have stopped with annexing Austria and the Sudetenland (part of Czechoslovakia)and stopped there, not carried out the Holocaust and attack and invade the rest of Europe he may have been one of the greatest leaders that Germany ever had. His decision to invade Poland and start WWII put everything down the drain at that point.It's a travesty that the Allied powers did not reach the death camps until the very end of the war. Did Roosevelt,Churchill and Stalin turn a blind eye as I have read several accounts of their knowledge of the existance of the camps as early as 1942.

There are evidences that the allied knew about the death camps, but we have to say that during that period of total massacre all their effort was to save their soldiers' s life and to win the war.

 

[Mitch]

You make it sound like it was wrong for the allied effort to defeat the armies in front of them whilst leaving the camps alone. Its not like there was just one camp which could have been attacked etc there were hundreds dealing with the so called ''untermensch''. so, it would have been a complete waste of resources and probably lost the allies the war to divert the resources required to stop the camp actions.

Nothing can be laid to blame at the allies door from doing nothing after proof of the camps came in. the only options were bombing (you could not get ground troops to all of these areas) and then one is accused of murdering the very people you are trying to help. without the ground troops no war won or liberation of the camps and, countries.
Mitch

There are evidences that the allied knew about the death camps, but we have to say that during that period of total massacre all their effort was to save their soldiers' s life and to win the war.

 

[Poppo]

You make it sound like it was wrong for the allied effort to defeat the armies in front of them whilst leaving the camps alone. Its not like there was just one camp which could have been attacked etc there were hundreds dealing with the so called ''untermensch''. so, it would have been a complete waste of resources and probably lost the allies the war to divert the resources required to stop the camp actions.

Nothing can be laid to blame at the allies door from doing nothing after proof of the camps came in. the only options were bombing (you could not get ground troops to all of these areas) and then one is accused of murdering the very people you are trying to help. without the ground troops no war won or liberation of the camps and, countries.
Mitch

No, no, I didn ' mean that the allied didn' t care of freeing the camps. I agree with you that they had no other choice.

 

[Mitch]

must have been a difficult thing to address as the world had not really seen calculated destruction on such a scale and, it seems clear that many really did not believe it was happening in the numbers that were mentioned. I don't blame the allies for that as even Himmler in a speech mentioned how it beggared belief. he mentioned something like its easy to be shocked at the death of small numbers but the mind just cannot comprehend such large numbers Mitch

No, no, I didn ' mean that the allied didn' t care of freeing the camps. I agree with you that they had no other choice.

 

[Poppo]

must have been a difficult thing to address as the world had not really seen calculated destruction on such a scale and, it seems clear that many really did not believe it was happening in the numbers that were mentioned. I don't blame the allies for that as even Himmler in a speech mentioned how it beggared belief. he mentioned something like its easy to be shocked at the death of small numbers but the mind just cannot comprehend such large numbers Mitch

Right, as the mind can not comprehend how Stalin could kill like 15, 20 millions people in almost 30 years.
Sure, Stalin' s way of killing was much less impressive than the gas chambers: his victims were shot, or starved to death, or obliged to forced labour in awful conditions till death. And as Stalin' s victims were not from western Europe, many europeans see that like a far event that doesn' t concern them directly.

Moreover, after WW2 the communist western europen parties decreased the sovietic responsibilities and made disinformation about those crimes, saying that some "mistakes" have been made, but for the good of the majority!

Unfortunately, there has not been a " Nurnberg" of communism,not only useful to con**** the communist criminals still alive ( NKVD, GPU, KGP, camp commanders, guards etc. etc.), but to enlight and make the truth ,culturally. While even today, we have often in western Europe an intolerable ambiguity about the soviet regime. The evidence is that even the most ignorant people know that Hitler is the "devil", but they ignore the existence of Stalin, or if they know him, they don' t imagine what a monster he was but if we make an account Stalin killed much more people than Hitler.

And we will speak of Mao' s mass murders ( more millions people) by famine or executions in "Laogai" next time.

 

[Mitch]

Not sure that I would disagree with you. for sure the Russian regime was a nasty one equally as bad as the germans. I am not sure whether there was any appetite from any side for another war crimes tribunal with all the problems its faced. the modern court derived from it still faces the same issues today.

That was one of the problems of the tribunal that the Russians were equally as culpable as the germans and could easily have been in the dock alongside the defendants at Nuremburg. It is interesting to see the issues of morality and legality the Katyn massacre raised when the German defence raised it at the trial.
Mitch

Right, as the mind can not comprehend how Stalin could kill like 15, 20 millions people in almost 30 years.
Sure, Stalin' s way of killing was much less impressive than the gas chambers: his victims were shot, or starved to death, or obliged to forced labour in awful conditions till death. And as Stalin' s victims were not from western Europe, many europeans see that like a far event that doesn' t concern them directly.

Moreover, after WW2 the communist western europen parties decreased the sovietic responsibilities and made disinformation about those crimes, saying that some "mistakes" have been made, but for the good of the majority!

Unfortunately, there has not been a " Nurnberg" of communism,not only useful to con**** the communist criminals still alive ( NKVD, GPU, KGP, camp commanders, guards etc. etc.), but to enlight and make the truth ,culturally. While even today, we have often in western Europe an intolerable ambiguity about the soviet regime. The evidence is that even the most ignorant people know that Hitler is the "devil", but they ignore the existence of Stalin, or if they know him, they don' t imagine what a monster he was but if we make an account Stalin killed much more people than Hitler.

And we will speak of Mao' s mass murders ( more millions people) by famine or executions in "Laogai" next time.