VEH011/012 PZ IV Ausf F1/F2 and TC006-008 German Tank Crews! (2 Viewers)

[fmethorst]

Some of this doesn't make sense. The 35th Pz.Rgt was associated with 4.Panzer-Division. Only the early panzer divisions which took part in the 1939 and 1940 campaigns operated with two panzer regiments.

http://www.lexikon-der-wehrmacht.de/Gliederungen/Panzerdivisionen/Gliederung.htm

The authorized allotment of Pz.IV for all German Panzer divisions in 1942 varied between 10-30 (German World WWII Organizational Series, Leo Niehorster). While I appreciate that actual allotments rarely matched authorized allotments (usually short) I don't believe a single panzer division would have 4x the authorized strength of a vehicle that was in short supply.

I am comfortable with Jason's numbers which refer to operational tanks.

Regardless I would be fine with whatever division FL chose to represent.

There are a few sources for this:

According to Jorge Rosado & Chris Bishop in The Essential Tank Identification Guide: WEHRMACHT PANZER DIVISIONS 1939-1945

16th Panzer Div. during June 42 to February 43 had in the 2nd and 35th Pz. Rgt.
Pz II - 13
Pz III - 57
Pz IV - 125
StuG - 42

24th Panzer Division during June 42 to February 43 had in 24th Pz. Rgt.
Pz II - 32
Pz III - 90
Pz IV - 32 (20 F1 and 12 F2)

According to Jason Mark, Death of the Leaping Horseman, as of September 12th, 24th Panzer Division had:

7 x Pz II
5 x Pz III Short
6 x Pz III Long
1 x Pz IV Short
3 x Pz IV Long

A few days later, these numbers go up a little bit including 1 additional PZ IV Long as a vehicle must have been returned to service. Around the same time, the 16th Panzer Division fielded 72 tanks, far more than the 24th had. Further, the entire German 6th Army only had about 180 Tanks in service by mid-September plus another 30 assault guns. So we aren't talking massive numbers here and clearly the drive to reach Stalingrad caused serious losses to German Panzer strength. I could provide more definitive numbers if I could only find my copy of Book 1 of David Glantz's Stalingrad Trilogy which covers the summer months, but I seem to have lost it in a move.

Finally, and of more direct relevance, the 16th and 24th Pz Divisions were combined in November to form a Kampfgruppe, so tanks with both markings can certainly be used together in dioramas.

Matt

 

[braddinpa]

I really like the stowage on the PZ IV. So tempting. Would make a good compliment with my PZ 3. And the tank crews are outstanding. Who needs Tigers when you have these guys!

 

[Phantom Warrior]

There are a few sources for this:

According to Jorge Rosado & Chris Bishop in The Essential Tank Identification Guide: WEHRMACHT PANZER DIVISIONS 1939-1945

16th Panzer Div. during June 42 to February 43 had in the 2nd and 35th Pz. Rgt.
Pz II - 13
Pz III - 57
Pz IV - 125
StuG - 42


Matt

The book lists 27 Pz.IV, not 125 (typo by Matt?) but doesn't specify long barrel or short barrel. It doesn't mention the 35th Pz. Rgt. at all which was part of the 4th Panzer Division.

Still good to have both gun versions as I'm sure there were some of each type.

Terry

 

[FirstLegion]

The book lists 27 Pz.IV, not 125 (typo by Matt?) but doesn't specify long barrel or short barrel. It doesn't mention the 35th Pz. Rgt. at all which was part of the 4th Panzer Division.

I got these numbers from my partner as I don't have the book myself and simply copied them so I'm sure it's a typo. I have and trust the Glantz/Mark books more, I just wish I had book 1 of the Glantz trilogy as I'm sure it lists exact numbers by type for both divisions through the summer approach to the city. Driving me crazy looking for it.

 

[nk81]

At the beginning of Fall Blau (June 28, 1942) the Panzer Regiment of both 16.Panzer-Division and 24.Panzer-Division were organized into the older 3 Abteilung of 3 Companies (9 Companies total) format. One company in each Abteilung was designated as medium and was comprised of Pz.IV. Due to a scarcity of Pz.IVs the medium companies were only authorized 2 platoons of 5 Pz.IVs each. None of the panzer regiments had their full allotment of tanks.

This meant the Panzer Regiment of the 16.Panzer-Division and 24.Panzer-Division were authorized for a total of 30 Panzer IVs each. Comparatively the light companies were authorized for 74 Pz.II and 106 Pz.III. In addition 11 command tanks were authorized.

Technically only the 4th, 8th and 11th companies were designated medium so the turret numbers should reflect this. Personally this is a minor quibble for me but it is a relevant detail.



The 16.Panzer-Division attacked Stalingrad from the north while the 24 Panzer-Division attacked from the south. 16.Panzer-Division was the first German unit to reach the Volga.

August 24 1942



I like that FL mixes up the units. If I really want to use vehicles from different units together I'll position one so the unit marking isn't visible.

I think both of these Pz.IVs look fantastic and I'm likely going to end up with both. I'll start with the short barrelled variant.

Thanks for the info. Hopefully FL can alter the number around. I see FL has a better reputation for historical accuracy.

 

[Mike97]

Wow, a guy goes off-line for a few weeks, comes back to the forum, see's this thread...and almost pee'd myself with excitement.

While my TS collection is pretty much packed up for the upcoming move, I know where my money is going once I get settled back in.

Bravo Matt !

 

[sammy719]

The more I re-read this thread the more excited I get!!!!! Not only these 2 beauties but Matt did mention we now need a 251!! I firmly believe the fellows at First Legion heard our call for more armour and now we are seeing the "proof in the pudding" !!!...Sammy

 

[Mike97]

The more I re-read this thread the more excited I get!!!!! Not only these 2 beauties but Matt did mention we now need a 251!! I firmly believe the fellows at First Legion heard our call for more armour and now we are seeing the "proof in the pudding" !!!...Sammy

Agreed, adding a 251 would be an outstanding addition to the line. I'm just glad to see a transition from III's to IV's and that FL didn't just skip to a Tiger-though I've no doubt an FL Tiger will be a beauty to behold some day.

 

[Gebhard]

Was just reading the new newsletter and noticed that the side hatches will open and close and that a figure will be coming that will be able to be placed there down the road. Also that the Antenna Raises/Lowers these are all very nice additions.

Really cool to see First Legion are always looking to improve, The PzKpw IV Ausf F1 with Short Barrel 75mm will be a must have and the add on crew as well.

 

[tommy416]

I love the two tanks. i love the fact that i can now buy the tank crew separately , i am sure it helps keeping the tank prices down. Why not also sell the tank stowage that you offer on the first tank separately too ?

 

[fmethorst]

I received my Pz.IV yesterday. Personally I think this model is fantastic and some of First Legions best work to date on the vehicle front. The stowage items on the back of the vehicle are removable which is a nice option.

Here are some pictures:











Frank

 

[Andanna]

From what I have seen so far, I totally agree with your assessment, Frank. It looks great, in particular the weathering. I was never a fan of the clean look. I think the weathering is an improvement.

 

[braddinpa]

The stowage looks really good. I like the weathered look. Of the two. I actually like this more.