Vintage Britains set; To bid or not to bid? (1 Viewer)

[Arnhemjim]

I will try to keep this thread as generic as possible in order to protect the “innocent”, i.e., those not yet proven guilty. I am just curious how many member of the forum have experienced a similar set of circumstances in dealing with persons on e-Bay?
A “set” of 8 W. Britains “vintage” (pre-WWII) toys soldiers, unboxed, was up for auction. Boxed or un-boxed it is a rare set, U.S. Marines in Service Dress. The composition of the set was 7 riflemen and an officer. There was reference made to a specific Britains Set No.399, with a question mark after the set number. Both James Opie and Joe Wallis stipulate that neither an officer or sergeant (stripes) was ever included in the set. As many of you may know this would not completely preclude a special custom painted set being produced, particularly in the early to mid 1930’s. I discerned what I thought was a distinct difference in the chroma of the green base, flesh color in the face, and blue-grey of the cap and belt of the officer compared with the riflemen. I believe I could also see a mismatch in the olive-drab color of the basic uniforms of a couple of the riflemen. I sent a question to the seller as follows:
“Dear (blank),
Is there any difference in the color of the green base, flesh of the face, gray cap and gray belt of the officer, compared with the rest of the figures in the set? Thank you very much in advance.
Arnhemjim”
This was approximately 40 hours before the auction was to end. I have yet to have any response from the seller. The seller has a 100.0% Positive Feedback, and a member since 2001. The seller’s page for the set stipulated; “No questions or answers have been posted about this item.”
I have two questions. Was I right to pass on bidding on this set? Should I have expected to receive an answer to my question before the auction ended?
Regards,
Arnhem Jim

 

[MapleLeaf]

U did the right thing
No answer no bidding
I was in the same situation a month ago
No answer no bidding
If they can't answer something ain't right
Next case

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Guys,

Having not seen this set I will say that the best thing was likely to pass on it. I was looking at a group of 23 Fusiliers that probably were from right after the 2d War and were in the small pictures looking good but when I opened the photos and took a closer look it was very obvious they had been altered extensively. Thus even with the very low price I passed because they would have required extensive restoration and would have probably ended up costing me more than a original paint set would.

If you have the auction tagged still please send me the link so I can look at them.

Dave

 

[theBaron]

One detail is missing - the price. Was the opening bid or current bid too high, just right, or a real bargain, based on your questions about its provenance and the accuracy of the seller's description? Just because the seller doesn't respond isn't necessarily a reason not to bid. He might be busy, even with 2 days left to get to the end of the auction. Same goes for updating the questions section of the auction. Some sellers have updated their auctions, based on questions I've sent them, others did not. But if this was a real steal, for what you think the set might be, or even just for classic Britain's hollowcast in general, I might still have bid. If he was asking a price higher than a reputable auction house - Vectis, say - might have sold it for, then his lack of response would weigh heavier in my decision.

Regarding the variation, I think first of something a collector painted, rather than a variation on a production item. Since the number of variations of Britain's figures, or other manufacturers' figures, is relatively small, and are reasonably well-document, even allowing for discovering something that has gone unnoticed, I think it's more likely that a collector modified figures on his own.

Those are some of the things that ran through my mind, based on your description. For me, no response doesn't automatically rule out bidding.

Prost!
Brad

 

[Arnhemjim]

Hi Guys,

Having not seen this set I will say that the best thing was likely to pass on it. I was looking at a group of 23 Fusiliers that probably were from right after the 2d War and were in the small pictures looking good but when I opened the photos and took a closer look it was very obvious they had been altered extensively. Thus even with the very low price I passed because they would have required extensive restoration and would have probably ended up costing me more than a original paint set would.

If you have the auction tagged still please send me the link so I can look at them.

Dave

Hi Dave,
The e-Bay page is: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=170624903301&ssPageName=STRK:MEWAX:IT.
I believe the images are still up (were when I just checked), and I'm sure with your eye, plus background on the set, you will readily see what I'm concerned about. I did check Vectis Auctions prices (wide range, with the economy and all). The un-boxed set went for about $153.00 USD. Will eagerly look forward to your *****sment. It truly is becoming a sub-specialty of forensic science.
Regards,
Arnhem Jim

 

[DMNamiot]

Hi Guys,

Taking a look at this set was a real treat. The belt the Officer is wearing is certainly a darker grey. The tone variations of the OD Green in the troops could well have been due to the flash and background they are on.

Now here is a possiblity for you to consider. This set might be a set of Territorial Army Infantry of which I think it could be set 1538 Territorial Infantry, Service Dress Marching at the Slope with the Green Uniforms making it a Rifle Regiment I dont have a color photo of the set but it certainly looks like some of the ones I have seen that were used for the Coronation Display of 1937 and were in production until 1941. What do you guys think? The description I have for those sets is 8 figures of which one was an officer.

Any thoughts or have I just muddied the waters more.

Dave

 

[Wraith]

Guys,

Reading with interest. Firstly, a full and frank admission that I know nothing about these figures or older Britains in general, but a thought crossed my mind, so I hope you don't mind me sharing it.

Would it have been likely that all of the marching marines / riflemen would have been painted together, almost conveyor belt style in multiples and that multiple officer castings have been painted at another time / by another painter, before all being put in the mix together to create multiple boxed sets. If that were the case, it may explain slight colour variations.

Don't know if I'm way off the mark, but...

Simon

 

[Arnhemjim]

Hello Dave, Simon and All,
Have done a reasonable amount of research during the course of bidding on the set. That included James Opie’s Big Book of Britains, Britains Toy Soldiers 1893 – 1932, and Joe Wallis’ Armies of the World, plus several other references. As I indicated in the initial thread there is no known example or record of either an officer or sergeant, i.e. stripes, ever being issued with the set. I went back and checked Set No. 1538 Territorial Infantry, Service Dress Marching at the Slope, and the color was different, dark rifle green uniforms with tan bases.
You may have seen scenes of Britains production line showing the women painting the figures from masses in large flat trays/pans. It’s my personal opinion that if the set in question had been a special painting, the officer figure used would have been from Set No. 228, already in existence, painted a matching olive drab, and that the order would have been done off-line from normal production. I believe the 7 riflemen are all righteous and from the same set (missing one rifleman), based on the consistency of their faces and green color of the bases. Personal opinion is that the officer was added to comprise a “complete” set of 8 figures. I’ve yet to precisely determine the figure used as the officer, but it is very well done.
The majority of the specific set (399) sold in recent years by Vectis are of the same olive drab color (blue-grey belt and hat w/brown visor), correctly without officer, and more importantly boxed. I was frankly surprised how many there had been, given the rarity of the set. All very intriguing. All things considered, and possibly just a rationalization, I'm glad I didn't bid.
Regards,
Jim

 

[MapleLeaf]

I told u Jim, rule #1
no reply something ain't right
no reply , no bidding
that's the safe way

 

[Gideon]

Something about the crispness of the paint on those figures bothers me. Doesn't really look like a prewar paint to me.

I've had various special issue britains figures come through my hands, coronation figures from the 30's and 50's and, to me, these just look off.