War Crimes, SS, Ike, Malmedy Massacre, Eastern European Culture (1 Viewer)

[Blowtorch]

*I thought since this response to Lancer's Russian Front question was categorized as unnecessary discussion to his original post, I'd create a new topic encompassing all the elements*



http://www.amazon.com/Eastern-Front...=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323288099&sr=1-2
http://www.amazon.com/Retreat-Hitle...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323288335&sr=1-1
http://www.amazon.com/War-World-Nia...=sr_1_6?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1323288444&sr=1-6


These are three books which discuss the brutality in the east, but I don't know of one that really does it justice. The subject got overlooked in the 50-60s due to the Cold War & the USSR becoming the new enemy, and continued to be overlooked as political correctness came into vogue. We know all about PC at Treefrog.

The German & Red armies were fighting like savages from the get go-but there were exceptions on both sides; it really depended on the individual-or really the presence of an individual with honor & rank to stop the atrocities. Generally speaking, there exists a cultural proclivity towards brutality in areas that weren't Romanized in antiquity, such as central & eastern Europe. Add to that the racial indoctrination the Germans had going through their heads during the victory fever of 1941-2 and of course the Reds were fighting for their very existence; it didn't help matters that Stalin hadn't signed the Geneva Convention so there were few legal restraints in place. The closest the West came to those brutal conditions were Marines vs. Japanese in the Pacific.

Even in recent times there was savagery going on in the Balkans during the Bosnian crisis. Things I doubt any of us could imagine until reading for the first time. In WW2 after June 22, 1941, the Poles & Ukrainians were hacking each other, Partisans, Germans, farmers, Reds, were all butchering each other. If you look in German language history books you are more likely to see photos of barbarism. In an English language book, you'll see a token hanging or firing squad. Oh, much more interesting things look place in the east.

Don't know much about the West except the Malmedy massacre which was a propaganda invention by Eisenhower as far as I know. Some G.I.s ran, it turned into a stampede, and they got hosed. Ike made a propaganda atrocity out of it to put some fight in his troops that winter & kept the lie going after the war to cover himself by having show trials of Peiper & his crew.

 

[Scott]

The German & Red armies were fighting like savages from the get go-but there were exceptions on both sides; it
Don't know much about the West except the Malmedy massacre which was a propaganda invention by Eisenhower as far as I know. Some G.I.s ran, it turned into a stampede, and they got hosed. Ike made a propaganda atrocity out of it to put some fight in his troops that winter & kept the lie going after the war to cover himself by having show trials of Peiper & his crew.

Transcript follows... Gen. Wesley Clark: Because in the United States Army that I served in proudly for 34 years, we did not beat up and torture prisoners. Just a second, Bill ---
Bill O'Reilly: Yeah, but with all due respect, there were atrocities in Vietnam, there were atrocities in World War Two --
Clark: Yes, and they were found, and they were punished.
O'Reilly: -- in World War One, in the Civil War, and the Revolutionary War.
Clark: They were not condoned by the chain of command.
O'Reilly: Yes they were!
Clark: No they weren't.
O'Reilly: Lt. Calley, and Medina in Vietnam.
Clark: They were not condoned by the chain of command, those guys were court-martialed.
O'Reilly: You know -- listen, with all due respect --
Clark: And let me explain something. You go all the way up the chain of command --
O'Reilly: General! You need to look at the Malmedy massacre in World War Two, and the 82nd Airborne who did it!

 

[Blowtorch]

Bill isn't on TV for his intelligence...

The first I heard of the conduct of the American investigation was in an appendix of Trevor Dupuy's book "Hitler's Last Gamble". Truly disgraceful.

An objective summary is here:

http://www.scrapbookpages.com/DachauScrapbook/DachauTrials/MalmedyMassacre01.html

There is yet more contained in the back of the JJF book on Peiper

 

[PanzerAce1944]

Blowtorch, interesting facts about the Malmedy massacre. Never heard the version of the American Pow`s trying to make a run for it. I think most in that situation would shoot captives who are attempting to flee. I think on the other hand most would agree the desert war in North Africa was a cleanly fought campaign for the most part.

 

[Mitch]

This theory of the incident was portrayed in the saints and soldiers movie where US troops fought and killed a german before making a break for it thus, starting the germans firing at the escaping prisoners
Mitch

 

[Napoleon1er]

There was a guy who came to my school who I got to talk with who actually interviewed the guy who ordered the Malmedy Massacre, as well as 2 of the survivors. It is because my school has on its ground the oldest Battle of the Bulge monument, so Bulge authors tend to talk here.
-Sandor:salute::

 

[DMNamiot]

Blowtorch you clearly have done the homework for the Eastern Front so now you should do the same for the Battle of the Bulge. No denying that the Eastern Front was brutal and there were many attrocities commited by both sides. But you need to get off the conspiracy bunk and do the reading and research on the Bulge and Kampf Group Peiper. I have a bunch of the books I am about to mention and though many are out of print you can still acquire them easily enough. To begin with the book First Across the Rhine by LTC David Pergrin of the 291st Engineer Combat battalion is detailed because he was incommand in the area when the massacre took place. He has also lectured in detail on the events of that day and is also quoted in the article from 2003 that I qoute later in this reply.

There is also a book about the events that took place in the little town of Stavelot whose title is in my office and I cant get too due to the hour here and everyone is asleep. However it states that on December 18, the day after the massacre at Malmédy, the same SS unit of Kampfgruppe Peiper, systematically executed 130 Belgian civilians in the village of Stavelot whose crime was sheltering American soldiers, 67 men, 47 women and 23 children were brutally executed. I will get the name of the author and book title and add it if needed later.

Charles MacDonald wrote A Time For Trumpets: The Untold Story of the Battle of the Bulge. in which he also details the events of this day.

Malmedy Massacre. by Richard Gallagher written in the 1960s while this was still fairly fresh in the memories of many people is also a detail accounting of the event.

If you want help with sleeping you could also find a copy of the Malmedy massacre Investigation–Report of the Subcommittee of Committee on Armed Services. United States Senate Eighty-first Congress, first session, pursuant to S. res. 42, Investigation of action of Army with Respect to Trial of Persons Responsible for the Massacre of American Soldiers, Battle of the Bulge, near Malmedy, Belgium, December 1944. 13 October 1949.

Oh and Bill O'Reilly mistakenly referred, in October 2005 and May 2006, to the "Malmedy" massacre as being committed by US instead of German troops. He later explained the error as a result of his being caught up in the "heat of the debate", and stated that he was in fact intending to bring up incidents when, "after Malmedy, some German captives were executed by American troops." O'Reilly recently repeated the mistake on his May 31, 2011 show. Both times he was interviewing retired General Wesley Clark.

Continued in the next post

 

[DMNamiot]

From the previous post:

Here is an excerpt of an article by Michael Reynolds and published in WWII Magazine in Feb 2003. Massacre At Malmédy During the Battle of the Bulge.
“It is unlikely that we shall ever know the precise sequence of events at the Baugnez crossroads, near Malmédy, on December 17, 1944, or the reasons for them. The secret lies with the guilty and the dead. Nevertheless, many corroborated facts are known and a careful analysis of these facts can bring us closer to the truth of what happened.
On December 16, 1944,
At the east end of Malmédy on the main N-23 St. Vith road, the leading jeep was stopped by an engineer, Lt. Col. David Pergrin. His 291st Engineer Combat Battalion had been stationed in the area since early November, and while most of the troops in Malmédy had bugged out to the west in the face of the German offensive, Pergrin had decided to stay and defend the vital road center until reinforcements could arrive. He had only one company of engineers available to him. The rest of his battalion was scattered throughout the northern Ardennes on various winterization duties. His appeals for reinforcements had fallen on deaf ears.
Pergrin had no idea of the extent of the enemy's strength, but one of his own jeep patrols had warned him that a German armored column was approaching the area to the southeast of Malmédy. He therefore warned Captain Mills and Lieutenant Lary not to proceed in that direction, and advised them to turn around and go to St. Vith via Stavelot, Trois Ponts and Vielsalm. But the artillery officers would not listen. They had their orders, their place on a designated route and, perhaps most important of all, they knew that two of the men with the route-marker truck were farther down that route and that they were due to pick them up. Ignoring Pergrin's warning, the battery proceeded on its way. However, four vehicles at the rear of the convoy did not follow immediately. Owing to the sickness of a corporal who appeared to have food poisoning, Ksidzek in the battery commander's car, the battery maintenance and wire trucks and the route markers' pickup truck diverted to the 44th Evacuation Hospital in Malmédy to obtain medical treatment. These four vehicles carried a total of 27 men.
Preceding the Battery B convoy on the N-23 was an ambulance of the 575th Ambulance Company, returning to its base in Waimes after a visit to the 44th Evacuation Hospital. Following it were four more ambulances, three from the 575th and one from the 546th Company.
The junction of the N-23 and N-32, less than two miles southeast of Malmédy, was known locally as the Baugnez crossroads. Since it was the junction of five roads, the Americans called it Five Points. Standing at the crossroads at about midday on December 17 was a Battery B route marker and a military policeman whose job was to direct the remaining serials of the 7th Armored Division. The only buildings near the crossroads in those days were the Café Bodarwé, on the southwest side of the junction with two farms beyond it, another farm on the north side and two small houses on the east side of the N-23–one 150 yards and the other just over half a mile south of Five Points.
At about 1245 the military policeman and route marker waved Mills and Lary's jeep through Five Points in the direction of Ligneuville and St. Vith. The visibility was good, the temperature just above zero and there was no snow on the ground except for a light covering in places untouched by the sun. Shortly after this, with the lead jeep about half a mile south of the crossroads and the last vehicle of the battery just short of the Café Bodarwé, the column came under fire from two German tanks some 800 to 1,000 yards to its east. These tanks were the point of Kampfgruppe (KGr.) Peiper, the leading formation of the 1st SS Panzer Division Leibstandarte Adolf Hitler. This division, the premier in the Waffen SS, together with its twin, the 12th SS Panzer Division Hitlerjugend, had been given the honor of spearheading the Sixth Panzer Army's attack toward the Meuse River. They were the only formations in the Wehrmacht to bear the Führer's name, and they enjoyed a fearsome reputation–both had already been accused of various war crimes and of killing prisoners in cold blood.
The commander of KGr. Peiper was SS Lt. Col. Joachim Peiper, a former adjutant to Heinrich Himmler and holder of the Knight's Cross with Oak Leaves. Through his service in France and on the Eastern Front he was renowned as a brilliant soldier and commander, but on this particular day he was tired and frustrated. Due to tougher than expected opposition by the U.S. 99th Infantry Division against the formations ordered to create a gap for his 117 tanks, 149 armored personnel carriers, 24 artillery pieces and some 40 anti-aircraft guns, he was already more than 12 hours behind schedule. Peiper had so far suffered few casualties, but his lead element, under the command of SS Lieutenant Werner Sternebeck, had been reduced from its original seven tanks and a platoon of engineers in halftracks to two Panzerkampfwagen (PzKw.) Mk. IV tanks and two halftracks.
As Sternebeck moved north on the road from Thirimont to Bagatelle on the N-32, he saw the Battery B convoy moving south on the N-23 to his left. It was an inviting target, and he immediately opened fire with his own 75mm gun and ordered his accompanying tank to do the same. Each tank fired about five or six rounds and then, on Peiper's order, moved as fast as possible to Bagatelle, where they turned left and proceeded to Five Points, then turned left again onto the N-23…
After turning onto the N-23 Sternebeck's PzKw. Mk. IV moved south, pushing abandoned vehicles out of the way and firing its machine guns at the ditches in which most of the Americans had taken cover. Sternebeck told the author that he did this to encourage the GIs to surrender and, since the Americans had no heavy weapons at their disposal, the tactic soon worked. He then waved his arm in the usual manner to indicate to the surrendering Americans that they were to march back down the road toward Five Points…
While the survivors of Battery B were being assembled in a field immediately adjacent to, and south of, the Café Bodarwé, three trucks from Company B of the 86th Engineer Battalion came up the hill from Malmédy and, after halting behind the ambulances at the rear of Battery B, were fired on by the Germans. Five of the men in these trucks managed to get away, although one of them was wounded and a sixth was captured…
By about 1400, 113 Americans had been assembled in the field by the Café. They included 90 members of the 285th Field Artillery Observation Battalion (all except three from Battery B), 10 men from the five ambulances, the military policeman who had been on traffic duty at Five Points, the 86th Battalion engineer and 11 men who had been captured by KGr. Peiper before reaching Baugnez–eight from the 32nd Armored Reconnaissance Battalion, two from the 200th Field Artillery Battalion and a sergeant from the 23rd Infantry Regiment.
In addition to these 113 prisoners, a further 26 men were involved in this tragic meeting with KGr. Peiper.
In addition, two men from the 197th Anti-Aircraft Artillery Battalion were killed when their jeep, which was presumably in front of the Battery B convoy, ran into Sternebeck's vehicles just to the east of Five Points. According to a young Belgian boy who witnessed the incident, they were shot in cold blood after being ordered out of the ditch in which they were hiding.
At approximately 1415, soldiers of KGr. Peiper opened fire on the American prisoners in the field next to the Café. The entire episode lasted no more than about 15 minutes. 61 Americans who somehow were still alive in the field of death next to the Café attempted their escape. Unfortunately, there were still a few Germans in the vicinity, and they opened fire as the escapees ran to the west and northwest. At least 15 were killed. Three more died later, and one was never seen again.
Lieutenant Colonel Pergrin, standing outside his headquarters in a house in eastern Malmédy, heard the firing by Sternebeck's tanks and guessed that that little FAOB outfit must have run into that column of German tanks. Sometime around 1500 he decided to make a reconnaissance toward Baugnez to investigate the noise. After passing through one of the eight roadblocks his men had mounted on all the approaches into Malmédy, Pergrin and one of his sergeants dismounted from their jeep at Geromont and continued on foot in a southerly direction. Suddenly they encountered three of the escapees from Five Points. They were hysterical and kept shouting, The Germans killed everybody! Pergrin rushed them back to Malmédy, and at 1640 sent a message to the chief engineer officer at First Army headquarters saying there had been some sort of massacre of American prisoners near Malmédy."

continued in the next post

 

[DMNamiot]

Finally

"The bodies of those who had died at Five Points on December 17 lay in what became a virtual no man's land from that day until January 14, 1945. Despite the fact that there was clear evidence from the many survivors that some sort massacre had taken place, the Americans made no attempt to recover the bodies before the 30th Infantry Division retook the area.
Then, between January 14 and 16, Major Giacento Morrone, Captain Joseph Kurcz and Captain John Snyder, all doctors at the 44th Evacuation Hospital, carried out autopsies on the bodies, which were frozen stiff and fully clothed on arrival at the hospital. The vast majority still had rings, watches, money and other valuables on them, which contradicts the statements of most survivors who said the Germans stole everything worthwhile from them before they were driven into the field. An analysis of the reports, all extremely disturbing to read, shows that 43 of the bodies had gunshot wounds to the head, at least three had suffered severe blows to the head, three had been crushed, two had received some form of first aid before death and nine still had their arms raised above their heads. What is certain is that terrible and usually fatal injuries were administered to the victims at close range.
The Malmédy Massacre continues to provoke as much argument today as it did during the subsequent war crimes trial at Dachau in 1946. Most Americans take the view that it was probably a premeditated act or at best a spur of the moment shooting of defenseless men. Those Germans who were involved and others who take an interest in the affair, and various pro-Nazi American and European writers, naturally attempt to provide some sort of justification for the shooting.
Twenty-one American survivors made statements to U.S. authorities in Malmédy on December 17, the same day as the massacre, and on the following day–long before there was any possibility of collusion or anybody putting ideas into their heads. They all told essentially the same story: After surrendering to a German armored column and being disarmed, they were assembled in a field just south of the crossroads. The Germans then opened fire on them with machine guns and rifles. In most cases, the survivors mentioned two pistol shots before the main shooting started. They said that soldiers then entered the field and shot anyone who showed any signs of life and that many of the bodies were kicked or prodded in order to get a response. Following this, the German column continued to drive past, with some of the vehicle crews taking potshots at the bodies lying in the field. All but one of the survivors insisted that no attempt to escape had been made before the Germans opened fire, and that the escape attempt came at a much later stage when they thought the Germans had left the area…”

Here is some more information: Kampf Group Peiper's action in the Ardennes was marked by other murders of prisoners of war, and later of Belgian civilians. Members of his unit killed at least eight other American prisoners in Ligneuville. There were also massacres of POWs reported in Stavelot, Cheneux, La Gleize, and Stoumont, on December 18, 19, and 20. Finally, on December 19, 1944, between Stavelot and Trois-Ponts, Peiper’s men murdered about 100 Belgian civilians. They were also implicated in further killings of POWs reported on December 31, 1944, in Lutrebois, and between January 10 and 13, 1945, in Petit Thier. The precise number of prisoners of war and civilians massacred by Kampfgruppe Peiper is still not clear. According to some sources, 538 to 749 POWs had been the victims of war crimes by Peiper's men. These figures are, however, not corroborated by the report of the United States Senate subcommittee that later inquired into the subsequent trial; according to the Committee, the number of dead would be 362 prisoners of war and 111 civilians. So in my opinion your notion of a massive conspiracy lead by Eisenhower is doubtful. The numbers of senior officers that would have needed to be invloved makes the idea inane. So please do the research.

Dave

 

[Blowtorch]

What happened at the Peiper unit trials & interrogations is fact. The torture is fact. The mock trials are fact. The forced confessions are fact.

For all the time, money & energy spent on the investigation, nothing of substance was learned. That is also fact. The didn't want to learn anything. It was a show trial...for show. That is what a show trial is.

This is a very good explanation of what probably happened, it is believable:

A day into the German attack, after the spearhead of the First SS Panzer Division under the command of Colonel Jochen Peiper overcame the initial American defenses near the Belgian-German border, the German forces ran into a column of nearly 200 American soldiers belonging to Battery B, 285th Field Observation Battalion that had been ordered to join other U.S. forces in the vicinity. This unfortunate American unit was traveling in their (no doubt well-closed - to ward off the cold) vehicles, seemingly unaware of the Germans nearby. Actually, both the German and American units ran into each other, with the Germans being the more alert since they were the very head of an entire Panzer army.


As can be expected, the German force (consisting mainly of five tanks and a few accompanying vehicles) opened fire when they came upon the enemy, immediately aiming at the very first and the very last of the American vehicles, as was a battle custom, and then raked the entire column with their machine guns and a number of shells from tank cannon, creating an inferno of burning and exploding American trucks and Jeeps. The GIs were totally surprised, and offered little resistance. According to everybody involved, the entire action lasted about ten minutes, after which most of the GIs surrendered.


Since the German commander, Colonel Peiper, had the order to reach a certain target at a given time, he did what can be seen in numerous WW2 newsreels of Third Reich war footage when rapidly advancing German tank units took enemy prisoners: the Americans were disarmed (but seemingly not body searched), and merely told to assemble in a clearing beside the road, lightly guarded by a few Germans in two vehicles, a half-track and probably a VW Schwimmwagen. The bulk of the German force continued, almost without interruption, on its way.


Once the tanks and other vehicles of Peiper's spearhead were out of sight, some of the Americans realized that they far outnumbered the handful of Germans guarding them. Knowing that American-occupied Malmedy was but a few thousand yards away, they saw an opportunity to escape into the nearby forest. The watchful Germans obviously saw this and fired at the escapees.


As a result, all hell broke loose. Many of the GIs had heard U.S. propaganda stories of the SS massacring their prisoners, and they believed that their end was near. They also tried to flee. Others remained on the spot where they stood in the snow, and merely did what soldiers do when firing begins: They hugged the ground, and looked for cover. Still other GIs (actually only very few) pulled the handguns they had hidden, or grabbed rifles that were still lying around and fired back at the German guards.


A few minutes later, after some of the Americans had made their escape, the German main force entered the area, traveling the same road as Peiper's group. Hearing the small arms fire, the German soldiers on the first vehicles of the main battle group undoubtedly were ready for action when they came upon the scene of the skirmish, and they also fired at the Americans.


Several minutes more, and this shooting also ended again with the Americans surrendering. This time the captured remainder of the Americans were more heavily guarded until the German main force had passed, and then they were marched back toward the east, into captivity. According to one source I spoke to, about 120 GIs counted as survivors of the "massacre" but I was never able to get a confirmation of this number. I maintain that had it been the German aim to really "massacre" the Americans at the Baugnez crossroads, they would have killed them all.


On December 17th, there was low visibility due to weather and terrain conditions in the Ardennes mountain region. And anybody who has seen the result of the rapid fire of a MG-42 on a column of soldiers can imagine the carnage that had occurred after the first GIs began to flee. This fastest machine gun of World War II could theoretically be fired at a rate of 1,550 rounds per minute, three times as fast as the .30 caliber American heavy (water cooled) machine gun then still in use.


Only few Americans had a chance to make it to their own forces stationed at Malmedy, and some of these honestly believed to have been the survivors of a premeditated massacre. About two decades ago, I attended a meeting of American ex-POWs in Washington, DC. Many of these former GIs had been captured in the Battle of the Bulge. Fortunately, I was able to talk to one of the fellows who had managed to escape during the shooting at the Baugnez crossing and make his way back to the American lines. He was one of those men who testified after the war against the Waffen-SS soldiers at the infamous "Malmedy Massacre Trial." In essence he confirmed the story of the incident as I have explained it above. After all these years he still thought it wrong for the Germans to have shot at a couple of escapees since this action resulted in the pandemonium that caused additional American deaths. When I asked him what he would have done, had he been ordered to guard German captives and one or more had tried to escape, he answered that he would have shot them. I was unable to convince this ex-GI that this was all the Waffen-SS guards did in this case.


So is that why you censored me on the other thread? Just because you personally didn't like my viewpoint?

 

[lancer]

DMNamiot, thank you for the voice of reason. For anyone to infer that Ike or other officers were involved in a conspiracy to trump up massacre charges is absurd. And then to infer that no massacre actually took place but was the killing of prisoners trying to escape is just plain wrong. The prisoners tried to escape only after the shooting started. If not a massacre, then what? Bullets to the head to make sure all are dead, to that many victims, to make sure no witness survives, is a massacre, pure and simple. -- Al

 

[Peter Reuss]

Gentlemen -

There are some topics which may have historical value, but for the sake of a toy soldier forum probably need to be 'out of bounds.'

Debates over atrocities are one of these topics. Problems arise when one country is called out, either for committing them or faking them.

People will defend their nation's honor, taking it from a dispassionate historical discussion to a passionate flame war.

If you accuse the British empire of atrocities, you'll have a fight.

If you impinge on the honor of the French you will have a fight.

If you say that the US lied at Malmedy you will have a fight.

While historians may debate these issues (and many do), the forum (with world wide readership) probably isn't the best place for them since they will degenerate into a flame war every time.

I can 100% guarantee that this thread would lead to warnings, infractions, and eventual thread locking. If you'd like to debate these highly emotional aspects of history there are many history forums available for that.

That said, I am locking this thread now.