Waterloo was lost at Quatre Bras (1 Viewer)

maloyalo

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This is just a supposition of mine, and very probably has been said before. When so much is written on a subject you have to think everything has been said. In fact I believe the exact account, with the correct answer to every debated point exsists. Unfortunately its scattered accross 1000 books.

If you look at the maps of the two battles, they have a very similiar topography, including some similiarity of where buildings/strongpoints where. Waterloo is just on a larger scale. The pattern of attacks and defense were also similiar, sometimes involving the identical troops, in the same roles. It was also often Ney vs Wellington as far as battlefield tactics went.

Some examples are:

- The woods on the right, being the right limit of fighting and being fought over incessently. The combattants were very much the same, being British Guards, Nassauers vs Reilles troops again. The Bossu wood fight at Quatre Bras becomes the Hougemont wood fight at Waterloo.

- A structure stood a few hundrend yds forward of the British center and divided ther battle in halves & was taken by the french in time; A two storied house at Quatre bras & La Haye Saint Farm at Waterloo.

- To the right of this structure the french assaulted mainly with cavalry, unsupported. Some identical troops replaying their roles here were some French Cuirassiers, Hawkett's British brigade, the Brunswickers. Hawketts Brigade had some temporary retreats in both battles.

- To the left the french mainly used mass infantry assaults altered with artillery barrages. Some repeat troops here were Packs and Kempts Brigades, and Bylant's Dutch Belgians.

- The left terminated in villages or farm groups and saw only secondary fighting.

- In both battles the Prussians & more french were 'out there' beyond the left flank.

My supposition is that the french were practically doomed to defeat before they even started the Battle of Waterloo. If you use the same unsuccessful tactics against the same troops, just two days later, most soldiers will be demoralized and fight much more conservatively. It explains the tendency of the French to break up into skirmishing groups (and taking more cover) after first attempts failed. They didn't think they could break those British lines. Conversely, the victors of the first battle, will even have more confidence in their leaders and tactics. It explains some of the tenacity, in a horrendous killing ground, of the British and allies. The results of the fighting on the British front were much the same. The arrival of the Prussians and the utter collaspe of the French was different of course.
 
From the few books I've read on this subject it seems Napoelon lost the war when he spilt his forces, one portion to take on the English/Aliies and the other force sent to find the Prussians, a very basic error for a leader with his reputation.
 
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I don,t think waterloo was lost at quatre bras at all!
This battles prime abjective was to hold the british in place and keep them from joining up with the prussains at ligny so that napoleon could defeat them without having to worry about the british coming up in his rear and turn the tables on his superior numbers over the prussains at ligny.

This is what field marshall Grouchy was supose to do a Warve! If he would have found the prussians and fought a holding battle and kept the prussains from joining wellington at waterloo, Waterloo would have been a french victory! Early unsupported cavalry charges and all!!!

Waterloo could have still been won no matter what had happened at Quatra bra. If Ney had attacked earlier at Quatra bra before the british had moved in more troops while it was still lightly defended the vital cross roads would have been in french hands and could have affected the battle of waterloo the next day. Ney was afraid to attack in full force at the start of the battle for fear of hidden british troops behind the hill slopes, a favorite trick of wellington in the penisular that made many a french marshall look bad in spain, so he hesitated and blew an opertunity to take Quatra bra while it was lightly defended.
Also if napoleon had pursued the prussians and defeated them in full he could have fought the british without fear of them joining the battle but, he wrongly believed they were retreating back on thier supply lines away from the british but they retreat parallel to the british.
He had mistaken some columns of retreating wounded and straglers going in that direction as the main prussian force.
If grouchy had rode to the sound of the guns in the distance he could have turned the tide of battle at waterloo so the battle was there to be won at waterloo for the french without a victory at Quatre bra.
 
From the few books I've read on this subject it seems Napoelon lost the war when he spilt his forces, one portion to take on the English/Aliies and the other force sent to find the Prussians, a very basic error for a leader with his reputation.

This was no error at all on napoleons part, he had won most of his battles against suppior numbers with this tactic.

He would split he forces and have a corp of his army fight a holding battle and hold off a much larger force and keep them from joining up with the other main part of thier army and give napoleon the opertunity to defeat the force in front of him and then rejoin the rest of his army to destroy the other half of the enemy forces and keep them from fighting the battle at full strength.

This was napoleons most successful tactic in battle it allowed him to have superiority of numbers where he needed it to win. Then he could take care of the rest of the enemy without worries and come to the rescue of his holding force and finnish off the enemy.
 
From the few books I've read on this subject it seems Napoelon lost the war when he spilt his forces, one portion to take on the English/Aliies and the other force sent to find the Prussians, a very basic error for a leader with his reputation.

Hi OzDigger, I was thinking mainly about the battlefield results of that day, why it happened the way it did. Everything that happened leading up to it had its effect of course. But on that morning once all was said & done the two sides would do battle with the forces they had managed to gather at that point. Napoleon, early that morning is said to stated the odds were 8 out of 10 in his favor (80% chance of victory, or some similiar number, it might have been 7 or 9, etc, I just can't remember). I actually think it was about the inverse, he had about a 20% chance to win.

But I agree that those other strategic elements are important, in that even if Napoleon had won the battle, I am very certain he could not have won the war, or even the campaign.
 
I don,t think waterloo was lost at quatre bras at all!
This battles prime abjective was to hold the british in place and keep them from joining up with the prussains at ligny so that napoleon could defeat them without having to worry about the british coming up in his rear and turn the tables on his superior numbers over the prussains at ligny.

This is what field marshall Grouchy was supose to do a Warve! If he would have found the prussians and fought a holding battle and kept the prussains from joining wellington at waterloo, Waterloo would have been a french victory! Early unsupported cavalry charges and all!!!

Waterloo could have still been won no matter what had happened at Quatra bra. If Ney had attacked earlier at Quatra bra before the british had moved in more troops while it was still lightly defended the vital cross roads would have been in french hands and could have affected the battle of waterloo the next day. Ney was afraid to attack in full force at the start of the battle for fear of hidden british troops behind the hill slopes, a favorite trick of wellington in the penisular that made many a french marshall look bad in spain, so he hesitated and blew an opertunity to take Quatra bra while it was lightly defended.
Also if napoleon had pursued the prussians and defeated them in full he could have fought the british without fear of them joining the battle but, he wrongly believed they were retreating back on thier supply lines away from the british but they retreat parallel to the british.
He had mistaken some columns of retreating wounded and straglers going in that direction as the main prussian force.
If grouchy had rode to the sound of the guns in the distance he could have turned the tide of battle at waterloo so the battle was there to be won at waterloo for the french without a victory at Quatre bra.

Hello fishhead19690!

The overall campaign and stratagies, and some things you mention are all part of what happened & had their effects on the Battle of Waterloo.

I am looking a one particular aspect, being why did the battle, just that day turned out how it did.

On that morning a certain number of French faced a certain number of British and allied troops. Both generals decided to fight, presumably because both felt they could win, or accomplish their objectives. Looking at how the french lost, I see both mental and tactical deficiencies, being the deciding factor.

It is not that the french were not brave, or determined to carry out their orders. Wellington himself says the French cavalry charges at waterloo were the most amazing thing he had ever witnessed, and his meaning is clearly that he meant the most courageous thing.
 
But I agree that those other strategic elements are important, in that even if Napoleon had won the battle, I am very certain he could not have won the war, or even the campaign.

I don,t Know thats as set in stone as you think. The french had a large army of veterains soldiers for the 1815 campaign still in france and great marshalls and generals like davout and they would be fighting on home ground close to home with shorter supply lines not like in past campaigns where they were on foriegn soil like there past campaigns and had to forage off the land, while on the other hand had the prussains and british been knocked out that would leave the austrian and russian forces with long supply lines fighting on french ground against french veterain soldiers.

These were not the french green conscripts of the 1813-14 campaign after the loss of the french army in russia!

I also think a lot of the smaller confederation of the rhine and other allies of the past might have changed back to napoleons side had things gone well for the french also.

General Rapp had a great victory over superior numbers of austrian and russian forces after the battle of waterloo and I,m sure napoleon would have raised even more forces to meet the allied threat and I,m sure the austrian and russian forces would have weakened as they got closer to france leaving behind troops from sickness, battle, desertion, and garrisons for the supply lines!!! So while the allies grew weaker the french would have grown stronger.

This is only my opinion! We,ll never know what COULD have happened but I,m sure it would not have been an easy victory had the french had the will to continue thats one thing I can tell you for sure. If Marshall davout, in my opinion his best Marshall had been told to hold france, they would have had the battle of thier lives tring to take france from napoleon,s veterains!!! Loss at waterloo or not!
 
At the risk of some controversy I would suggest that Waterloo was won by Marshal Blucher. If he had don what was expected of him and retreated to Germany after Lingy I don't think Wellington would have won Waterloo. There now seems to be growing consensus that the Prussians were at Waterloo a lot ealrier than Wellington made out and their attack at Placenoit was decisive in stopping the French
Regards
Damian
I will now dig in and expect Incomming rounds:)
 
I don,t Know thats as set in stone as you think. The french had a large army of veterains soldiers for the 1815 campaign
These were not the french green conscripts of the 1813-14 campaign after the loss of the french army in russia!
I also think a lot of the smaller confederation of the rhine and other allies of the past might have changed back to napoleons side had things gone well for the french also.
General Rapp had a great victory over superior numbers of austrian and russian forces

Your certainly right about my opinion being much less then concrete! More like mud ? :D

Just one opposing point. The French army was not quite all veteran's. Many were new conscripts, and most of the veterans only vets of the 1813-1814 fighting. The only really longtime vet concentrations were in the Guard, and some of the line cavalry & artillery. At least this is what I believe from the sources I have read. Nearly the entire Grande Army was as you mentioned destroyed in Russia.

Now if Davout and his old 3rd Corp were still around...that would have been interesting!
 
Don,t forget now that all the garrison troops that were stationed all over eruope from the russain borders all the way back to france were now back in france and they were all veterians some from even before the russian campaign and lets not forget the penisular veterains either that were now back in france. The conscripts from 1813-14 were now hardened troops also after a couple of years of hard fighting!
 
At the risk of some controversy I would suggest that Waterloo was won by Marshal Blucher. If he had don what was expected of him and retreated to Germany after Lingy I don't think Wellington would have won Waterloo. There now seems to be growing consensus that the Prussians were at Waterloo a lot ealrier than Wellington made out and their attack at Placenoit was decisive in stopping the French
Regards
Damian
I will now dig in and expect Incomming rounds:)

No rounds. Just idle armchair talk on a enduringly interesting subject. It may be all Wellington's fault when he said no one would ever make a satisfactory (and true in all points) account of it. Close to 200 years of authors and would-be authors trying to prove him wrong.

I think your point the most likely cause of the defeat if my supposition is wrong. What a marvel old Blucher was! In his 70's leading cavalry charges like the Hussar Captain he once was. But also being a great leader and the driving force behind his men. And what determined & grim troops the Prussians of 1815 were. Ligny and Placencoit were murderous battles.

I haven't come accross any large change to the time of the Prussians arrival & still thought they were first seen in the distance around 1pm, and started their fighting about 4pm. The french line against them was still intact at the time of the last Guard assault at 7pm, although under great stress at the angle by Papolette.

Its a fact Blucher was coming to Waterloo. Napoleon did not expect it at first, but when it became apparent the Prussians were coming in some force he had to change his goal to driving off the British quickly and then turning to face the Prussians. I address the point of why he could not drive the British off.

To predict what might have happened if the Prussians did not arrive is of course extremely difficult and impossible to prove out really. One of the first of many branching off possibilities is that Wellington would not have recieved the many messages assuring the arrival and verifiying the progress of the Prussian forces. He may have changed his dispositions and deployed entirely differently. His 17,000 detached at Hal might have been brought back. He may have fallen back.

But to entertain the idea for a moment, I do not think it likely the French would have driven the British and allies off their ridge at Waterloo, even with Lobau's 2 Divisions and The Young Guard. Wellington also still had some relatively fresh infantry reserves on his right (ie. 51st, 23rd, 14th Regiments, Hew Hawketts Hanoverian Brigade, etc).
 
Bottom line we,ll never know what would have, should have, could have happened! but in wellingtons own words it was a near run thing.

I,d like to see how near it would have been without the 48,000 prussians in napoleons rear and right flank.
Those thousands of fresh french GUARDreserves could have been the nails in wellingtons coffin . And like you said about wellington knowing the prussians were coming. Do you think he would have held his ground or retreated if he knew they WERE NOT coming?

I think the arival of the prussians had a mental affect on both sides. For the french it was crushing but for the british it inspired them to fight on.

Think what you like we can all have our alternate history played out the way we would like to have seen it go down but, for me without old blucher being helped from beneath his dead horse at ligny its curtains for wellington! but lets not beat bluchers dead horse! botton line Napoleon wastes away on a rock in the middle of know where!!!:p
 
but in wellingtons own words it was a near run thing. botton line Napoleon wastes away on a rock in the middle of know where!!!:p

Yes, it was. Napoleon was actually removed from his grave on St. Helena and returned to France. His remains are in or adjacent the Hotel Le Invalids, which is now the French Army Museum, in Paris. He was brought back around the 1860's I think.
 
At the risk of some controversy I would suggest that Waterloo was won by Marshal Blucher. If he had don what was expected of him and retreated to Germany after Lingy I don't think Wellington would have won Waterloo. There now seems to be growing consensus that the Prussians were at Waterloo a lot ealrier than Wellington made out and their attack at Placenoit was decisive in stopping the French
Regards
Damian
I will now dig in and expect Incomming rounds:)


:D Have you got your tin helmet on Damian,i hear Napoleonic guns being wheeled into place!
 
Rumble, Rumble, Rumble....:eek: :eek: :eek:

La Batterie d'Artillerie est prete - Mon Empereur NAPOLEON !

Allons faire nous BOMBARDER l'Escume Britannique ?

:D :D
 
Je Ne Parle Pas Francais Capitolron,

Which complicated things when I was left stranded on the battlefield of Waterloo, I can tell you.

The question I suggest an answer to (in original post above), is why was Napoleon's Army unable to defeat Wellington's Army at Waterloo. I am not looking at why Napoleon was unable to beat the Prussians, or any 'ifs'. The 'why's' are already spectulative enough!
 
Je Ne Parle Pas Francais Capitolron,

Which complicated things when I was left stranded on the battlefield of Waterloo, I can tell you.

The question I suggest an answer to (in original post above), is why was Napoleon's Army unable to defeat Wellington's Army at Waterloo. I am not looking at why Napoleon was unable to beat the Prussians, or any 'ifs'. The 'why's' are already spectulative enough!

Ahhh But Maloyalo .... Mes Canons Parlent la Mort pour l'Anglais !! :eek: :eek:

Let the conversation begin !! :D
 

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