What French Regiment at Ticonderoga: Vote (1 Viewer)

[Fraxinus]

This may be our dumbest poll yet imagined. But as Combat hasn't posted a poll in a long time, this was the only thing I could thing of, so .....

Likely uniform configurations by French Regiment for Ticonderoga (1758).

A full strength French regular battalion of the period number 31 officers and 525 soldiers divided into 1 grenadier and 12 fusilier companies. That works out to 40 soldiers and 2 officers per company, plus 3 staff officers. The strength of a single British infantry company would be equivalent to 2 companies of French soldiers. Similarly,the strength of a single British regiment would be roughly equivalent or somewhat less than 2 french regiments/battalions.

When shipped to Canada from France in 1755, the La Reine, Bearn, Languedoc and Guyenne were issued non-standard uniforms. These were supposedly replaced by 1758. The other regiments were shipped to Canada in 1756 and 1757, so they had standard european regimental issue. The unit in Canada was the 2nd battalions of the each regiment. The Berry were represented the 2nd and 3rd Battalions. The 1st Battalion of each regiment remained in Europe. Pockets on the outer coat (justaucorps) and buttons also helped distinguish regiments. Still very unsure about whether the grenadiers in Canada ever wore bear-skin hats.

I believe the battalions carried two regimental flags (same design) to mark the left and right limits of their deployments.

The waistcoat was long sleeved. The justuacorps was always white except for the artillery (Blue) with a red waistcoat. The front flap on the fatigue cap (cloth cap) would match the waistcoat color.

1758 Dress for Waistcoat/Cuff/Collar/Hat Lace

La Reine: BLUE/Red/Red/Silver

La Sarre: RED/Blue/Blue/Gold

Royal Roussillon: BLUE/Blue/Blue/Gold

Languedoc: BLUE/Blue/Blue/Gold

Guyenne: RED/Red/Red/Gold

Berry: RED/Red/Red/Gold

Bearn: RED/Red/Red/Gold

So time to VOTE, what french regiment is John going to release? The waistcoat color is the most obvious differentiation RED or BLUE.

Osprey's Ticonderoga suggests that Montcalm is likely to have ordered his troops to keep on the outer justaucorps and not wear their waistcoats as an outer garment. Apparently, there were some friendly fire incidents at the Siege of Fort William Henry. I am guessing this had to do with french troops in red waistcoats being misidentified as British troops.

 

[mikemiller1955]

Ken...which French regiment repulsed the British in hand to hand combat as they temporarily broke through the French barricade...this makes the most sense as John can have hand to hand sets for this part of the engagement...

and wasn't Montcalm personally leading the French at the spot the British broke through...

whatever French regiment that was...would make the most sense to me...

 

[catul]

I'm with Mike on this one - it should definitely be the regiment that actually faced the breaking of the barricades by the 42nd - and according to Osprey's Ticonderoga book, that was the Royal-Roussillon!

Niels

Ken...which French regiment repulsed the British in hand to hand combat as they temporarily broke through the French barricade...this makes the most sense as John can have hand to hand sets for this part of the engagement...

and wasn't Montcalm personally leading the French at the spot the British broke through...

whatever French regiment that was...would make the most sense to me...

 

[The Military Workshop]

From a dealer point of view I will vote for whichever looks best and might sell best but from a personal view I will go for the French Regiment that had the most casualties !!!

 

[45thdiv]

I agree that it should be something that was involved in the break though, but I would also, from a personal point of view, like something to compliment the La Sarre sets I have. I just don't want the same cuff color, unless it is in a different pose than marching.

Matthew

 

[catul]

Well, I would be very surprised if John made any French marching figures for Ticonderoga!

When the attack took place the French were situated in fixed positions behind the barricades! The poses I'm expecting to see are French sharpshooters firing, delivering/receiving their muskets to/from the less able shooters behind them, who in turn are in different loding positions and delivering the loaded muskets to the sharpshooters - a bit behind these there would be standing lines of grenadiers waiting for the enemy to breach the barricades, and engage them in hand to hand fighting!

Niels

I agree that it should be something that was involved in the break though, but I would also, from a personal point of view, like something to compliment the La Sarre sets I have. I just don't want the same cuff color, unless it is in a different pose than marching.

Matthew

 

[45thdiv]

Hi Niels, That would be just up my ally for poses. While I liked the marching units from PoA I thought thought the series could do with some firing units on both sides. Now at least I'll get some of the same units involved in that battle here as well. So they can play double duty.

Plus, who am I kidding - I'll get them no matter the pose. Well unless they are the dead sets. For what I use the figures for, the dead ones just lye around for looks and never get moved.

Matthew

 

[Fraxinus]

It is my understanding french grenadiers were required wear a moustache. Regular infantry were required to be clean shaven.

Montcalm held the grenadiers in reserve. So at the breach point, we should have french grenadiers sealing the breach. John's Sudan figures with moustaches have simply been superb.

 

[Combat]

I'm with Mike on this one - it should definitely be the regiment that actually faced the breaking of the barricades by the 42nd - and according to Osprey's Ticonderoga book, that was the Royal-Roussillon!

Niels

I'm too tired to look it up. But I think at various points in the battle the 42nd attacked in the center, left and right. So they pretty much covered the entire French line.

 

[fortti51]

Hello. I am new to the Forum. I collect Frontline as well as JJD. Frontline already produces Roussillon and De La Reine. JJD produces La Sarre. I would therefore prefer anyone of the other French regiments to be produced for the Ticonderoga series. I voted for Bearn.

 

[catul]

Combat - true enough, but I believe John has been quoted of stating that he is planning on sculpting 42nd figures on top and climbing over the barricades - that only happened at a specific time of the battle - sometime between 5 pm and 6 pm, no matter what this was also the only time the 42nd line and the 42nd grenadiers fought together (all the British grenadiers were formed together in a seperate unit for the duration of the battle)!

This specific attack was initially directed at the French right (La Reine, Béarn and Guyenne) and then moved to the center (Royal-Rousillon and Berry), and it was supposedly at this time a handful of highlanders climbed the barricades!

So IMHO to be historically correct, Royal-Roussillon or Berrry would be the right choice, and at least La Sarre and Languedoc would be a definite no-go!

Niels

I'm too tired to look it up. But I think at various points in the battle the 42nd attacked in the center, left and right. So they pretty much covered the entire French line.

 

[Fraxinus]

Although the fiercist attack by the 42nd was against the Royal Rousillion, the actual breach apparently occurred in the Bearn's sector (see second paragraph below). So it would be nice if the French regulars were the Bearn regiment. However, unless we can find conflicting information, I am thinking reinforcing french grenadiers might be of any regiment, as Montcalm used the french grenadiers as his mobile reserve. This would allow John to give us two French regiments with at least two different regimental flags. As the formation of the grenadier reserve likely mirrors the front line of the french regulars to a degree, you might think the Berry, Bearn or Guyenne grenadiers are more likely to seal the breach, but as Montcalm was likely moving from the center of the french lines to the right in order to seal the breach, more speculation ........ As the french companies were only 40 men, more than 1 grenadier company could easily have moved to seal the breach. If John is free to choose any regiment for the grenadiers, I would be tempted by the Languedoc simply because they are "Blue" as opposed to "Red" colors for the Bearn, Berry and Guyenne. Royal Rousillion is "Blue", but is done by Frontline so ..... time to research ..... Languedoc is not a great choice if you simply look at french regimental positions, but nice if you want to connect those french grenadiers to the Battle of Lake George (American colonial, French Grenadiers, Indians).

From the Osprey volume Highlander in the French-Indian War:

"The Highlanders attacked with the greatest fury", recalled a French officer, "and this attack threatened real danger". General Montcalm, sword in hand, marched quickly at the head of reserve grenadiers just in time to see screaming Highlanders jumping over the parapet led by a large 6 ft-tall Scot wielding his broadsword with deadly effect.

In this plate, we see the CaptainLt John Campbell from Duneaves, leading his men against the French grenadiers. Given a battlefield promotion for gallantry at Fontenoy, Campbell and a handful of Highlanders at Ticonderoga forced their way over the entrenchment walls in the Bearn regiment's sector, but were quickly bowled over and bayoneted in the counterattack led by Montcalm. Campbell and a dozen of his men were killed, while the remaining seven Highlanders were given quarter and allowed to surrender.

...... hurriedly constructed in 3 days by Montcalm's entire army. It consisted of a log wall stretching and zig-zagging the width of the heights, 7-8 foot high, constructed of very large logs (trimmed flat on the top and bottom), lying lengthwise atop the earthen bank, thrown up from a DITCH in the front facing the enemy. To the front of the wooden ramparts, green trees and branches camouflaged and masked the actual size and strength of the French defenses from the British until it was too late."

Comment: In the Osprey Plate drawing, the french grenadiers have red collars and cuffs and no bear skin hats plus there is french officer in a blue waistcoat (Montcalm??). Hats in gold lace.

From Osprey's Ticonderoga:

Each regiments "HQ was to be marked by the two battalion colors but, at Ticonderoga, at least one of these (flags) was at the log wall. "

Osprey's Ticonderoga suggests that Montcalm might have been wearing a bright gold trimmed red waistcoat without his outer jacket during the battle, so if a Montcalm figure shows up in a red coat ----- NO PROBLEM and it is likely to be VERY SNAZZY!!

 

[Fraxinus]

http://books.google.com/books?id=oj...ge#v=onepage&q=john campbell duneaves&f=false

See Pages 25-26, very luck google book scan of the Osprey Highlanders in the French-Indian War.

 

[Combat]

Combat - true enough, but I believe John has been quoted of stating that he is planning on sculpting 42nd figures on top and climbing over the barricades - that only happened at a specific time of the battle - sometime between 5 pm and 6 pm, no matter what this was also the only time the 42nd line and the 42nd grenadiers fought together (all the British grenadiers were formed together in a seperate unit for the duration of the battle)!

This specific attack was initially directed at the French right (La Reine, Béarn and Guyenne) and then moved to the center (Royal-Rousillon and Berry), and it was supposedly at this time a handful of highlanders climbed the barricades!

So IMHO to be historically correct, Royal-Roussillon or Berrry would be the right choice, and at least La Sarre and Languedoc would be a definite no-go!

Niels

You are probably right about what John will do. Most likely the RR. Berry would be somewhat more colorful because of the red in their uniforms but I doubt John goes that direction.

 

[Fraxinus]

To clarify and answer an email about the how many drummers and flag bearers would be needed in a diorama:

Using two sources that are close but not perfect matches, so the estimate on the number of privates per company has a little wiggle room around it.

From Military Uniforms in Canada (Summers and Chartrand): "A full strength regular battalion of the period (1755-1760) numbered 31 officers and 525 soldiers, divided into 1 grenadier and 12 fusilier companies."

From Osprey's Louis XV's Army (2):

Fusilier Company: 40 man

1 Captain
1 Lt.
2 Serg
3 Corporals
3 Lance Corporals
1 Drummer
Plus Privates ( my math, somewhere around 29 to 31)
_______

Grenadier Company: 45 Men

Same as above plus a 2nd Lt. with (my math, somewhere around 33 to 35) Privates
______

Battalion Staff

Lt. Col.
Major
Aide-Major
2 Ensigns for the Flags
_______

Regimental Staff

Colonel
Surgeon
Sergeant-Major
Drum Major
Chaplain

As the Canadian units were only represented by the 2nd Battalion of each regiment (Berry 2nd and 3rd Battalions), unsure on how the Regimental Staff would be allocated. More likely, additional staff assigned to the Canadian units, like a Surgeon and Chaplain?

 

[Fraxinus]

Just so everything is in the same place, another source on battalion makeup and company size that is somewhat different, from Montcalm's Army (Osprey):

A Battalion equals 1 Grenadier, 1 Light and 8 Fusilier Companies

A Company:

1 Capt
1 Lt.
1 Ensign
1 or 2 Cadets
2 Sergeants
2 Corporals
1 Drummer
45 Men