winter tiger maybe?? (1 Viewer)

[sammy719]

Since I'm the new guy on the block I should have at least one ''can you guys make this for me set"...I think we the detail F.L. has shown so far in thier armour has been superb and what would be better then a winter tiger?? any other suggestions...Sammy

 

[jazzeum]

I could be wrong and probably am since I'm not that knowledgeable about tanks as Frank and Terry but were there any Tigers at Stalingrad?

 

[fmethorst]

Hi Sammy,

Take a read through this thread:

http://www.treefrogtreasures.com/forum/showthread.php?t=17204

 

[forlornhoper]

According to all the known records ,there were no Tigers at Stalingrad,the first versions of the initial run of Tigers were committed around Leningrad,somewhat unsuccessfully according to some commentators. ken

 

[debrito]

I am not sure at all, but I think the the first Tiger arrived in the south Russia by the end of spring 1943...for sure they were in Koursk in the summer of 1943.

Cheers

 

[fmethorst]

The Third Battle of Kharkov (19 February 1943 – 15 March 1943) would be an appropriate setting for whitewashed (winter) Tigers.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_Battle_of_Kharkov

 

[daruss]

Since I'm the new guy on the block I should have at least one ''can you guys make this for me set"...I think we the detail F.L. has shown so far in thier armour has been superb and what would be better then a winter tiger?? any other suggestions...Sammy

PLEASE! NO MORE WINTER ITEMS! There are other companies that make way too much winter already! I kind of like what FL is doing now. Early eastern front grey! If you really want winter, just put some of that fake snow on your vehicles!

 

[daruss]

I am not sure at all, but I think the the first Tiger arrived in the south Russia by the end of spring 1943...for sure they were in Koursk in the summer of 1943.

Cheers

First tiger i believed rolled into Russia in late '42. In fact, back in '04, there was a major documentry on German TV about Stalingrad. Footage showed an early tiger rolling into the city around November, right around the time the "encircelment" began..

 

[forlornhoper]

Documentaries dont always show the correct footage take no notice ,all known records agree there were no tigers as far east as Stalingrad during the battle,nb there is footage of a tiger in action in the film "Battle Of Britain" !!!! and an M7 priest in Panzer Grey !!!!.If a Tiger was ever at Stalingrad,which is doubtful,it would have been for experimental reasons,but even that would not make any sense,Tanks dont do built up areas and the Germans would know this ,penny packet tactics with new untested weapons would have negative results,similar to the penny packet commitment of tigers around Leningrad,which ultimately led to the capture of one of the newly deployed tigers by the soviets ,therefore before any numbers of these new tanks could be deployed on the eastern front ,the soviets knew what this new tank could do and more importantly what it couldnt. ken

 

[Panzer]

The initial combat actions for the Tiger involved s.Pz.-Abt. 502 in August 1942. They attacked as part of Army Group North in the vicinity of Leningrad.

S.Pz.-Abt. 503 participated as part of Army Group Don in attempting to stop the Soviet advance following the encirclement of the German 6th Army in Stalingrad. S.Pz.-Abt. 503 was a heavy tank battalion integrated with 20 Tiger I tanks and 31 Panzer III tanks.

On 27 December 1942, s.Pz.-Abt. 503 was sent to Army Group Don to assist in stabilizing the front. This unit was tasked to help protect Rostov so that the 1st and 4th Panzer Armies and other German units in the Caucasus could withdraw across the Don River to the Donets River, where the German high command planned a new defensive line.

Probably the largest single employment of S.Pz.-Abt. 503 occurred on 7 January 1943 when the battalion, supported by 2d Battalion of Panzer Grenadier Regiment 128, attacked towards Stavropol. The Tigers knocked out eighteen Soviet tanks and destroyed an armored car and five antitank guns forcing a Soviet retreat in that sector. The battalion pursued the retreating Soviets and, during the pursuit, lost its first vehicle during the entire engagement, a Panzer III to artillery fire.

Semper Fi!
Rick

 

[daruss]

Actually, the documentary i was reffering to was pretty darn accurate..

I am not sure at all, but I think the the first Tiger arrived in the south Russia by the end of spring 1943...for sure they were in Koursk in the summer of 1943.

Cheers

Documentaries dont always show the correct footage take no notice ,all known records agree there were no tigers as far east as Stalingrad during the battle,nb there is footage of a tiger in action in the film "Battle Of Britain" !!!! and an M7 priest in Panzer Grey !!!!.If a Tiger was ever at Stalingrad,which is doubtful,it would have been for experimental reasons,but even that would not make any sense,Tanks dont do built up areas and the Germans would know this ,penny packet tactics with new untested weapons would have negative results,similar to the penny packet commitment of tigers around Leningrad,which ultimately led to the capture of one of the newly deployed tigers by the soviets ,therefore before any numbers of these new tanks could be deployed on the eastern front ,the soviets knew what this new tank could do and more importantly what it couldnt. ken

 

[jazzeum]

Thanks for the detailed responses. I was pretty sure, after doing some research, that no Tigers were present at Stalingrad. However, the point I was trying to make (and maybe not to well), but which Daruss also made, is that since First Legion is going to build this range, a Tiger is unlikely in the near future.

 

[FirstLegion]

There were absolutely no Tiger tanks that were part of the 6th Army or part of the battle for the city of Stalingrad itself or trapped in the Kessel. However, there is conflicting information about what role if any Tiger tanks played in Manstein's relief effort, Operation Winter Storm. We know for sure that Hitler dispatched the first full battalion of Tiger Tanks to participate in the battle, what we do not know is whether they made it there in time to actually take part in Winter Storm. Most records, which are just that, records of times and dates, show them arriving too late and not fighting until early January in an effort to keep the Rostov escape route open to Army Group Don.

However, Antony Beevor in his book Stalingrad, seems to believe that Tiger Tanks were involved in Winter Storm. He mentions them twice in his book.

The first is:

"[Hitler] was impatient to discover how the new Tiger tank, with its 88mm gun, would perform. The very first battalion to be formed had been rushed to the Ostfront and added to Kirchner's force [LVII Panzer Corps]"

This is certainly evidence that the intent was there, however, it does not conclude one way or another if they actually took part.

However, he then goes on to say of Winter Storm itself:

"On the second day of the offensive, 6th Panzer Division reached the Verkhne-Kumsky....On the high ground round this village began what General Raus [6th Panzer Division] describedas a 'gigantic wrestling match'....It proved a success locally - Hoth's divisions and the Tiger tanks advanced to the line of Myshkova, once 17th Panzer Division arrived and Richtofen threw in maximum air support."

This is pretty anecdotal evidence at best, but it's clear that Beevor believed they took part when he wrote this. He could very well be mistaken as there has been some confusion about the fact that the Tigers apparently fought with 17th division after Winter Storm. I really don't know. I would think if they did take part in Winter Storm at least someone would have mentioned it in their memoirs, such as Manstein or Raus, so I wonder where Beevor got his information. He quotes Raus in this same passage.

Either way, Tiger tanks undisputedly took part in the overall Stalingrad campaign in the swirling actions outside the kessel if not as part of Winter Storm, then in the defense against Soviet Operation Little Saturn. So we could make a "winter tiger" for our Stalingrad range and not be out in left field. However, this doesn't mean we're going to do so as there are plenty of other wonderful vehicles to make that were part of the direct battles in the city and would compliment our range quite nicely.

Best,

Matt

 

[sammy719]

There were absolutely no Tiger tanks that were part of the 6th Army or part of the battle for the city of Stalingrad itself or trapped in the Kessel. However, there is conflicting information about what role if any Tiger tanks played in Manstein's relief effort, Operation Winter Storm. We know for sure that Hitler dispatched the first full battalion of Tiger Tanks to participate in the battle, what we do not know is whether they made it there in time to actually take part in Winter Storm. Most records, which are just that, records of times and dates, show them arriving too late and not fighting until early January in an effort to keep the Rostov escape route open to Army Group Don.

However, Antony Beevor in his book Stalingrad, seems to believe that Tiger Tanks were involved in Winter Storm. He mentions them twice in his book.

The first is:

"[Hitler] was impatient to discover how the new Tiger tank, with its 88mm gun, would perform. The very first battalion to be formed had been rushed to the Ostfront and added to Kirchner's force [LVII Panzer Corps]"

This is certainly evidence that the intent was there, however, it does not conclude one way or another if they actually took part.

However, he then goes on to say of Winter Storm itself:

"On the second day of the offensive, 6th Panzer Division reached the Verkhne-Kumsky....On the high ground round this village began what General Raus [6th Panzer Division] describedas a 'gigantic wrestling match'....It proved a success locally - Hoth's divisions and the Tiger tanks advanced to the line of Myshkova, once 17th Panzer Division arrived and Richtofen threw in maximum air support."

This is pretty anecdotal evidence at best, but it's clear that Beevor believed they took part when he wrote this. He could very well be mistaken as there has been some confusion about the fact that the Tigers apparently fought with 17th division after Winter Storm. I really don't know. I would think if they did take part in Winter Storm at least someone would have mentioned it in their memoirs, such as Manstein or Raus, so I wonder where Beevor got his information. He quotes Raus in this same passage.

Either way, Tiger tanks undisputedly took part in the overall Stalingrad campaign in the swirling actions outside the kessel if not as part of Winter Storm, then in the defense against Soviet Operation Little Saturn. So we could make a "winter tiger" for our Stalingrad range and not be out in left field. However, this doesn't mean we're going to do so as there are plenty of other wonderful vehicles to make that were part of the direct battles in the city and would compliment our range quite nicely.

Best,

Matt

Hmmmmmmm, maybe we will, maybe we won't, the excitement of the wait...Sammy

 

[daruss]

I knew it was involved in some capacity in the Stalingrad region! Maybe not in the actual city.. Now that being said, got another question.. Were any italians involved in fighting in the city, or where they just on the outskirts ??

 

[FirstLegion]

I knew it was involved in some capacity in the Stalingrad region! Maybe not in the actual city.. Now that being said, got another question.. Were any italians involved in fighting in the city, or where they just on the outskirts ??

Good question. While I'm not 100% sure on this off the top of my head, no, I don't believe the Italians or Romanians fought in the city itself in any meaningful numbers. Rather, they were positioned defending the northern and southern flanks of the German 6th army and took the front line pummeling in the Russian counter offensive Operation Uranus. The fighting in the city itself, while certainly the typical focus of attention of the battle, was only one phase of the battle. So while these allies may not have fought in the city proper, between them the Italians and Romanians took something like a quarter of a million casualties in the Battle of Stalingrad. So it's fair to say they were involved in the battle!

A Croatian regiment did fight in the city however attached to the 11th Corps.

 

[Blowtorch]

However, Antony Beevor in his book Stalingrad, seems to believe...

that statement is like flares going off over a sinking Titanic. Beevor is one of those 'soft' historians that shoots from the hip...worry about the details later, if ever. He's just marketing, dude. Reminds me of that Zaloga character when it comes to tanks.

Don't have the dates in front of me right now, but iirc, the 503 didn't arrive until the last week of December, after Winter Storm had run it's course. It had an additional company from the Leningrad battalion and was used to stablize the front as Ivans shot for Rostov to cut off Army Group A in the Caucausus.

The chronology was something like a) Winter Storm starts, b) Russian counterattack Italians, c) Winter Storm cancelled, d) 503 arrives & blocks Russian drive to Rostov.

The 503 was intended to get in action earlier, but it was a green unit & couldn't get organized in time. Also iirc, the 503 went into action as it was rolling on it's transport train...the Russians were aiming for the rail line & the Tigers were engaging while still on the rail cars.

Had the copyright owner of "Enemy at the Gates" not sat on republishing that title for several decades, you would never had heard of Beevor. His book is just a poor & misinformed rewrite of Craig's book.

 

[FirstLegion]

that statement is like flares going off over a sinking Titanic. Beevor is one of those 'soft' historians that shoots from the hip...worry about the details later, if ever. He's just marketing, dude. Reminds me of that Zaloga character when it comes to tanks.

Don't have the dates in front of me right now, but iirc, the 503 didn't arrive until the last week of December, after Winter Storm had run it's course. It had an additional company from the Leningrad battalion and was used to stablize the front as Ivans shot for Rostov to cut off Army Group A in the Caucausus.

The chronology was something like a) Winter Storm starts, b) Russian counterattack Italians, c) Winter Storm cancelled, d) 503 arrives & blocks Russian drive to Rostov.

The 503 was intended to get in action earlier, but it was a green unit & couldn't get organized in time. Also iirc, the 503 went into action as it was rolling on it's transport train...the Russians were aiming for the rail line & the Tigers were engaging while still on the rail cars.

Had the copyright owner of "Enemy at the Gates" not sat on republishing that title for several decades, you would never had heard of Beevor. His book is just a poor & misinformed rewrite of Craig's book.

Fair enough and you are probably correct, as every source I can find says much the same thing (or rather, talks about these battles without referencing any Tigers) and Beevor doesn't cite his source of where he got his information relative to the Tigers from. Beevor may be a "soft" historian, but the problem with his books is that they are so entertaining to read. Island of Fire, for example, while probably infinitely more accurate, is painful to actually "read" by comparison.

If you can remember the sources which discusses the arrival of the Tigers in a narrative form (i.e. not simply dates, unit numbers, and locations) please let me know as I'd love to read it particularly a narrative of them being engaged immediately upon arrival.

Best,

Matt

 

[Vezzolf]

PLEASE! NO MORE WINTER ITEMS! There are other companies that make way too much winter already! I kind of like what FL is doing now. Early eastern front grey! If you really want winter, just put some of that fake snow on your vehicles!

I agree....First Legion early eastern front grey is not being done by anyone......And no one does "German Grey" like First Legion can.....Can't wait for the Panzer III and hoping next for a Grey Panzer IV short barrel version with 3 tank figues like the Tamiya 1:35 scale model........A winter tiger latter though would not be rejected by anyone

 

[fmethorst]

Excerpt from
The Combat History of schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503, In Action in the East and West with the Tiger I and II
(schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 Veteran’s Association)

The following comes from Alfred Rubbel

Transportation to the southern sector of the Eastern Front began on 21 December 1942. Detraining from the railroad transports which had been routed for express movement took place at Proletarskaja. The war began for schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 in the early days of January 1943 along the Manytsch River.

Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 had also been organized at nearly the same time as schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503. It also had only two tank companies. In the fall of 1942 it had been commited to action in the northern sector of the Eastern Front with a Headquarters Company, a Maintenance Company and only one tank Company. The 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 had been held back at Fallingbostel. In December of 1942 the 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 loaded onto rail transport to Heeresgruppe Don. On arrival it was attached to 17. Panzerdivision and saw it's first employment in the Kalmuck Steppes southeast of Rostov under it's company commander Hauptmann Lange.

The 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung 502 possessed a fairly good capability to operate on its own. In order to be logistically self sufficient it had been provided with the requisite additional elements. The 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung would have liked to keep that status. For reasons of practicality and necessity the 2./schwere Panzer-Abteilung was consoldiated with schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 as the 3.Kompanie at the beginning of January 1943. Schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503, of course, was also employed on the Kalmuck Steppes at the time. The OKH decision was not greeted with a lot of enthusiasm by the company.

With that addition, schwere Panzer-Abteilung 503 became the first Tiger battalion to be brought to full strength according to the 1943 standard of organization.