Wwii italians when ??? (1 Viewer)

[daruss]

What is the average flight speed of an unladen swallow?

Here we go again, getting off the point!! Now back to WWII italian figures,,, I have been begging Andy for years to do "WAR IN ITALY 43-45".. Especially battle for sicily.. Not only do you have a variety of fighting forces, but you have excellent scenery, neat diorama choices (villas), railroad action,, the possibliites are endless, i can go on forever,,
As far as italian equipement, the have some nice armored vehicles,, especially the FIAT 611, and the AS 42 !! I also like the other posters idea about Sicilian Coasted divisions!
After the 43 surrender, the Italian RSI and GNR forces had the best uniforms ever!!

 

[cantinetozzo]

Yes after all the Italian Army was the "first" in some fields , for example in adopting a camo sheet (i think in the 20's)..sorry for being too annoying in defending my country sometimes yes some vehicles were good (as Daruss said the Sahariana for example) and some weapons too (the Beretta machine gun) others were awful..what i cannot understand is why so many peoples love them and the toy soldier producers ignore them ...some years ago i collected and painted 1/72 soldiers and Italians were a rarity in that scale too..now that i abandoned that field (problems of sight ) i see that Italeri (but many others brands too) produced soldiers ,cannons , "Semoventi da 75", M13/40, the Sahariana and even the "Autocannone 3RO". http://www.netmerchants.co.uk/product.php?xProd=15460 ..what can i say?..a gold age for 1/72 collectors..but i wait for them in King & Country style..i hope not to wait too long....

 

[Rob]

I know what its like waiting for a producer to make a theme you really want,i waited for British D Day troops for a long time and so have been very happy with K&C releases this summer.So i really hope you Italian fans get your wish and get lots of great releases,you've all waited for a while now and i hope you all get what you want.

Rob

 

[rossim1]

But would k&c make make them? I cant really see them being that popular around the world.

 

[Rob]

I think there maybe something Italian in the pipeline,but a whole new range is something different and would take a big commitment i guess.I suppose it depends entirely if Andy thinks they will sell or not.

Rob

 

[Phantom Warrior]

But would k&c make make them? I cant really see them being that popular around the world.

Not likely as an entire stand alone range. Andy has said he is reluctant (my word ) to make Russian armour as that series did not sell as well as hoped (although he made only on piece of armour at today's standard - a T34/85 - so does he really know that Russian armour won't sell? )

But the Italian pieces could fit in very well with the hugely popular AK & 8th Army series without posing the same risk as an entire Eastern Front Russian series. He could just slip in a few Italian pieces.

I have already pre-ordered the HB Italian paratroopers. Some Italian armour to go with them would be nice? Right Andy?

Terry

 

[fmethorst]

..sorry for being too annoying in defending my country sometimes

No need to apologize.

I find the debate over one group of people being braver than another pointless because people are all essentially the same. The factors that motivate them to fight are too numerous and varied to capture in a post on a TS forum. Suffice to say that I believe that if a group high level performers with it's set of life experiences, upbringing, motivations etc. were to swap those experiences for the ones belonging to a group of poor performers then the overall performance of the first group would drop to that of poorly performing group. To say otherwise would be to argue that there is a genetic difference between people in regards to bravery.

To illustrate my point lets compare the Eastern Front to the Western Front from a German casualty perspective. In both cases the nationality in question is German yet there is a distinct difference between number of MIA casualties, the bulk of these being soldiers who were captured or surrendered. Up until June 1944 the percentage of German casualties on the eastern front who were MIA was 13.1%. For comparison this figure was 9.2% for the Western Allies. This number rose dramatically during Operation Bagration (The destruction of Army Group Center) but after August dropped back down to the previous percentage. Compare this to the percentage in the west.

Eastern Front....% Casualties MIA
June 1944........58.7
July 1944.........59.5
Aug 1944.........51.1
Sept 1944........12.9
Oct 1944.........17.9
Nov 1944.........11.0
Dec 1944.........13.5

Western Front....% Casualties MIA
June 1944........44.7
July 1944.........52.6
Aug 1944.........86.0
Sept 1944........68.3
Oct 1944.........48.7
Nov 1944.........53.4
Dec 1944.........38.7

So why the difference? Keep in mind that there were more encirclements in the east as well. One thing that jumps out is the German was far more comfortable surrendering to a western ally than to a Soviet. This is hardly surprising considering the nature of the war in the east. So the fact that, in the east, the German thought he stood a higher chance of being killed or suffering in captivity motiviated him to fight harder. In other words it was his situation and not his nationality that made him "braver"

"A hero is simply a coward who got cornered"

 

[Phantom Warrior]

No need to apologize.

I find the debate over one group of people being braver than another pointless because people are all essentially the same. The factors that motivate them to fight are too numerous and varied to capture in a post on a TS forum. Suffice to say that I believe that if a group high level performers with it's set of life experiences, upbringing, motivations etc. were to swap those experiences for the ones belonging to a group of poor performers then the overall performance of the first group would drop to that of poorly performing group. To say otherwise would be to argue that there is a genetic difference between people in regards to bravery.

To illustrate my point lets compare the Eastern Front to the Western Front from a German casualty perspective. In both cases the nationality in question is German yet there is a distinct difference between number of MIA casualties, the bulk of these being soldiers who were captured or surrendered. Up until June 1944 the percentage of German casualties on the eastern front who were MIA was 13.1%. For comparison this figure was 9.2% for the Western Allies. This number rose dramatically during Operation Bagration (The destruction of Army Group Center) but after August dropped back down to the previous percentage. Compare this to the percentage in the west.

Eastern Front....% Casualties MIA
June 1944........58.7
July 1944.........59.5
Aug 1944.........51.1
Sept 1944........12.9
Oct 1944.........17.9
Nov 1944.........11.0
Dec 1944.........13.5

Western Front....% Casualties MIA
June 1944........44.7
July 1944.........52.6
Aug 1944.........86.0
Sept 1944........68.3
Oct 1944.........48.7
Nov 1944.........53.4
Dec 1944.........38.7

So why the difference? Keep in mind that there were more encirclements in the east as well. One thing that jumps out is the German was far more comfortable surrendering to a western ally than to a Soviet. This is hardly surprising considering the nature of the war in the east. So the fact that, in the east, the German thought he stood a higher chance of being killed or suffering in captivity motiviated him to fight harder. In other words it was his situation and not his nationality that made him "braver"

"A hero is simply a coward who got cornered"

Excellent argument. The murder of US prisoners at the beginning of Battle of the Bulge is reputed to have made the US troops fight harder and be less likely to surrender.

Terry

 

[Rob]

It als once again brings home the terrible casualties in the fighting in Normandy.

Rob

 

[cantinetozzo]

Very interesting data fmethorst, and the final quote i think ends the issue..the Italian soldiers suffers from the shocking image of km of prisoners taken in the first offensive by the Western Desert Force and guarded by a tiny armoured car , it's really one of the most powerful images of the war i think, after that the italian soldier steadily improved under german leadership but another of the blows to italian soldiers was given by the Desert Fox himself who didn't respect his allies so much (i can understand him ,he gained his Pour Le Merite against the italians capturing an entire battalion in the Caporetto offensive and few years after the war returning to those sites with his wife was nearly killed by the inhabitants of that italian town) and wrote in his diary of how much he was a genius and his allies amateurish soldiers..definitely a war that Italy (its people) didn't want to fight , but that was unavoidable...

 

[johngambale]

AAAhhh the Godfather" 'Michael' Where's Fredo"? Or maybe 'Aye 'you talkin to me UHHH//?

 

[Harrytheheid]

I know what its like waiting for a producer to make a theme you really want,i waited for British D Day troops for a long time and so have been very happy with K&C releases this summer.So i really hope you Italian fans get your wish and get lots of great releases,you've all waited for a while now and i hope you all get what you want.

Rob

Hi Rob,
Just speaking personally, the trouble with waiting for so long for a theme I really like is that eventually my collecting interests will move on. If, for example, interesting Italian troops for the Desert War had been available, say, one year ago, I would've snapped them up because I was much more interested in the early campaigns conducted by O'Connor. And Italian forces didn't perform as poorly as is commonly believed, especially the artillery arm.
Propaganda was a tool employed by everyone during WWII I suppose.
If some Italian sets finally make an appearance, I'm not so sure that I'll buy them now. Like I say, its probably just me, but my collecting interests tend to jump around eras and I'm now entirely focussed on two other company's ranges.
Mind you, once I actually see any new Italian sets....
....
That's why I kind of admire guys like yourself, and for instance, our very own UKReb, who can choose a conflict, era, call it what you will - and stick to it.
Having said that, I also kind of like having a variety of troops from different eras so's I can rotate my displays as the mood takes me.
Funny Old Game - Innit?

Cheers
Harry

 

[cantinetozzo]

AAAhhh the Godfather" 'Michael' Where's Fredo"? Or maybe 'Aye 'you talkin to me UHHH//?

John i was referring to "A hero is simply a coward who got cornered" quote by Fmethorst!by the way those quotes are not bad too...