I like K & C but sometimes!!!!!! (1 Viewer)

[Peiper007]

I collect K & C medieval warriors, napoleonic, battle of the bulge plus other WW2 and will continue to do so, but sometimes K & C bring something out that confounds and confusesk me and makes me think if they have a research department! For example the 'battle of the bulge Elefant'. There was no Elefants in the battle of the bulge, they were all destroyed in either Russia and/or Italy.

I was wondering if there were any other sets or single figures that you have the same opinion about?

Another would be the amount of Napoleon figures there are and ofcourse the duplicate of Adolf and the other Nazi's in that range.

 

[daruss]

Yea dude! On that WWI german armoured car, it looks like the design was off, and the WWI german armoured cars did not have a HUGE Iron cross on the front grill!

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I collect K & C medieval warriors, napoleonic, battle of the bulge plus other WW2 and will continue to do so, but sometimes K & C bring something out that confounds and confusesk me and makes me think if they have a research department! For example the 'battle of the bulge Elefant'. There was no Elefants in the battle of the bulge, they were all destroyed in either Russia and/or Italy.

I was wondering if there were any other sets or single figures that you have the same opinion about?

Another would be the amount of Napoleon figures there are and ofcourse the duplicate of Adolf and the other Nazi's in that range.

I think that is andy making use of artistic license. He probably just wanted to make an Elefant but had no Italian Campaign or Eastern Front series so he stuck it in BOB. There are several German AFVs that are in the Normandy or BOB series that are really Eastern Front pieces, which is where I group them.

Terry

 

[desk11desk12]

Know how many rivets were on that KC Sherman again??? LOL.

Life is too short to be a perfectionist even at these prices. Of course that's only opinion.

Carlos

 

[kx1a]

I don't have the records on hand at the moment but I believe you will find Elephants (sp?) on the Western front. I think you will find that some of the Ferdinands used on the Eastern front were refitted with extra armour and a bow machine gun for close in protection (the Ferdinand had no such protection) the the resulting new piece was renamed Elefant and used in the west.


then of course I could be wrong

Bill W

 

[Peiper007]

Hello

The battle of the Bulge is my 'thing'. I have been therer about 14 times and am looking at buying a holiday home there, I know of all the German units whoi served there and none had Elefants.

Another thing is that I own a number of books on the Elefant and it was unarmoured and given a front MG for self defence, the Elefants were either transferred to German Army North or sent to Italy, none were sent to France, I know this for sure for my research has led me to find out what actually happened to each Elefant made, where they broke down, destroyed and/or were captured. All served only in Russia and Italy, with 5 surviving to be destoyed in East Prussia. Couple of interesting things,

1/. The Germans sent the Elefants to Italy but they were very restricted in there movement as the bridges in Italy could not take the weight.
2/. There is a surviving Elefant at Aberdeen Proving Ground in the USA, it was not even with the collect when I went there in 2007, it is stuck in the railway sidings pointing at some trees, I have pics if anyone wants them.

At Aberdeen is an excellent 'wood burning' Panzer 4.

Cheers

graham

 

[Peiper007]

Another thing, but are the Battle of the Bulge figures getting bulkier? look at the new ones compared with the Tanks riders of the earlier sets.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

I don't know of any Elefants or Ferdinands used on the Western Front and certainly not at BOB. They were used in Italy but most of the Elefants were used in Russia. The last of the Elefants were in combat at Zossen during the Battle of Berlin.

Elefant had the highest ratio of kills/losses of any tank destroyer with a ratio of approximately 10:1. At Battle of Kursk, the sPzJagAbt 653 claims to have destroyed 320 Russian AFVs while losing only 13 Ferdinands, a ratio of 25:1.

While the Elefant was very strong defensively with an 88 mm L/71 gun and 200 mm of frontal armour, it was not a good offensive weapon as it was not maneuverable and was prone to mechanical breakdown. Because of it's weight, it was a difficult vehicle to recover. Many of the elefant losses were due to mechanical breakdown/abandonment for lack of fuel and were destroyed by their crews.

Terry

 

[DMNamiot]

The Elefant at Aberdeen Proving Ground was also the recent subject of the Military Channel Show Tank Overhaul. I saw it last April with my son he was really excited to see it since we watched the TV show together. Also you all are correct on the locations where these monsters were used. The one at Aberdeen was captured near Anzio after it was disabled by a Sherman using an AT round which crippled the vehicle by jamming one of the drive gears (see right front of vehicle in 2 photo). They actually recovered a portion of the round while doing the refit.

 

[The Military Workshop]

I think you will find K&C has a research Dept.
I am guessing they spend thousands of hours researching every vehicle and sending their technical people to all the relevant museums and personal collections to count the rivets and measure the various bits. In addition they have a team of people who read every book and magazine published about armour and uniforms and have a researcher in every military museum in the world. They of course have acesss to all the records for every vehicle ever made in WWII and what colour it was on every day of the war.
Actually I think I could be wrong as that seem like it would slow things down and increase costs considerably (in fact I recall with much amusement reading a thread with many posts by obviously well read forum members about Wittmans Tiger and by the end of it I was none the wiser as to what would be correct).
I think somebody called Andy could be the research Dept and he seems to be quite overworked as he also has to worry about Jesus (I recall the post quoting the bible and noting the stables were wrong !!), Egypt, Medieval, Naps, American Revolution, American Civil War ( one poster pretty much said all ACW figures available from all brands were wrong except some recent Britains that were good only for Gettysburg !!), Alamo, Crimean, Empire, WWI, RAF, US Air Force, USMC, US Navy and mutiple items for WWII. Current range is probably in excess of 1,000 items.
If the Elephant does not fit in with your knowledge of the Battle of the Bulge then do not buy it. If you want toi display it being attacked by Crocket, Caesar and Cornwallis then go head as what you do in your own home is up to you. You command the troops you buy.
I have had minor disagreements with the Research Dept and I would have to confess the WWI German armoured car was one of them. However I would have to say that if you were looking for a one man research Dept then the guy for the job would have to be called Andy. Even more so when it is his own money.
LONG LIVE THE RESEARCH DEPARTMENT .
That is my totally unbiased humble opinion.
Regards
Brett

 

[The Military Workshop]

Note to the K&C artwork Dept. Time for another cartoon !!!

 

[Eazy]

A lot of people on this board really know their subject and do a lot of research. If something about a model's design or history is obviously wrong then it's good that they let us know and keep us informed.

K&C's Elefant is one of my favourite models - it's a beast- but in my scenario it's just a winter scene, it's not the Bulge.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

A lot of people on this board really know their subject and do a lot of research. If something about a model's design or history is obviously wrong then it's good that they let us know and keep us informed.

K&C's Elefant is one of my favourite models - it's a beast- but in my scenario it's just a winter scene, it's not the Bulge.

The Elefant is one of my favourite pieces as well. It's part of my Eastern Front scenario - just waiting for the Russian offensive.

Terry

 

[lancer]

I am pretty sure that once you purchase a model like, say the KC Elephant, you can pretty much do with it what you want. Sold as a Normandy piece? So what. Put it on the Eastern front or in Italy or hide it in the Abbey of Caen if you wish, waiting to counter-attack the advancing Sioux Indian Tribe. As said by other posters, if you like it, buy it and then do what you please with it, or don't buy it and then don't worry so much. KC, like all the TS manufacturers, are doing their best to turn out excellent product. Once in a while a boo-boo occurs. I can live with an error here and there. If an error is too egregious for me to live with, then I don't buy it. Just my two cents worth. -- lancer

 

[Cyber Field Marshall]

Good point Lancer. I'll add that collectors should be happy that Andy even did an Elephant at all for his collectoring public considering they do not currently have an Eastern Front or Italian Front lineup. Obviously they needed to put it somewhere for marketing so instead of creating a new line for one piece it was put into the BOB. In fact if memory serves the caption that came along with the Elephant on the K&C website acknoweledged the places that the Elephant was found and the purchaser could put it in their theatre of choice. Bottom line its a nice piece, just because it's classified wrong big deal. Of more importance to rivet counters would be the colouration, #ing, unit insignia etc which ofcourse I'm no expert on.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

Good point Lancer. I'll add that collectors should be happy that Andy even did an Elephant at all for his collectoring public considering they do not currently have an Eastern Front or Italian Front lineup. Obviously they needed to put it somewhere for marketing so instead of creating a new line for one piece it was put into the BOB. In fact if memory serves the caption that came along with the Elephant on the K&C website acknoweledged the places that the Elephant was found and the purchaser could put it in their theatre of choice. Bottom line its a nice piece, just because it's classified wrong big deal. Of more importance to rivet counters would be the colouration, #ing, unit insignia etc which ofcourse I'm no expert on.

The camo is fine for the Eastern Front.

Terry

 

[Combat]

I give KC a lot of credit for doing so many different lines and products. They have to do a lot of research to get even close. I'm sure there are tons of detail errors that few of us are qualified to even notice or care about. However, they do occasionally make some real lulus that make you wonder. The non-existant Rammjager, Heydrich car, and Hitler reading a WWI map written in English come to mind.

They compound these errors by never explaining or correcting any royal snafu. And instead of viewing comments here as constructive any response is along the line "don't buy it if you don't like" or start your own company. I can understand the sensitivity to investing blood, sweat and tears into this business and then having people complain, but that is not really a customer friendly attitude. When you are in business one of the things you deal with is people complaining - particulary if you screw up. Imagine if Toyota told customers to start their own company if they don't like the defects in their cars.

 

[thebritfarmer]

I give KC a lot of credit for doing so many different lines and products. They have to do a lot research to get even close. I'm sure there are tons of detail errors that few of us are qualified to even notice or care about. However, they do occasionally make some real lulus that make you wonder. The non-existant Rammjager, Heydrich car, and Hitler reading a WWI map written in English come to mind.

They compound these errors by never explaining or correcting any royal snafu. And instead of viewing comments here as constructive any response is along the line "don't buy it if you don't like" or start your own company. I can understand the sensitivity to investing blood, sweat and tears into this business and then having people complain, but that is not really a customer friendly attitude. When you are in business one of the things you deal with is people complaining - particulary if you screw up. Imagine if Toyota told customers to start their own company if they don't like the defects in their cars.

A great post Combat and one which I also agree with.

 

[tdubel]

I give KC a lot of credit for doing so many different lines and products. They have to do a lot research to get even close. I'm sure there are tons of detail errors that few of us are qualified to even notice or care about. However, they do occasionally make some real lulus that make you wonder. The non-existant Rammjager, Heydrich car, and Hitler reading a WWI map written in English come to mind.

They compound these errors by never explaining or correcting any royal snafu. And instead of viewing comments here as constructive any response is along the line "don't buy it if you don't like" or start your own company. I can understand the sensitivity to investing blood, sweat and tears into this business and then having people complain, but that is not really a customer friendly attitude. When you are in business one of the things you deal with is people complaining - particulary if you screw up. Imagine if Toyota told customers to start their own company if they don't like the defects in their cars.

I hear you, but one point, I thought the Rammjager was explained as a representative prototype, not necessarily ever made and he made it b/c he thought it was a neat piece?

Hitler on the ww1 map, that is obviously a headscratcher. I never really cared about Heydrich's car, just took the color as artistic license.

The German Armored Car, not my collection cup of tea, but again, I took that one as artistic license.

TD

 

[Leadmen]

Another thing, but are the Battle of the Bulge figures getting bulkier? look at the new ones compared with the Tanks riders of the earlier sets.

I found my Bulge MP motorcycle figure is very large compared to other figures and Normandy figures. The earlier Bulge support figures were large and this one is larger then the average size.