Battle of Britain: the real story (2 Viewers)

Aside from the direct comparisons of the 109 and Spit, all of the tactical advantges of the BOB were on the side of the Brits. The 109 was limited in flight time over Britain due to fuel capacity, escorting slower bombers not suited for longer range bombing missions, and the radar technology of the Brits allowed them to coordinate defensive measures in a way that maximized resources. Those were important factors in the outcome.
 
Aside from the direct comparisons of the 109 and Spit, all of the tactical advantges of the BOB were on the side of the Brits. The 109 was limited in flight time over Britain due to fuel capacity, escorting slower bombers not suited for longer range bombing missions, and the radar technology of the Brits allowed them to coordinate defensive measures in a way that maximized resources. Those were important factors in the outcome.
Those were important factors but I think it is a bit of an overstatement to say that all tactical factors favored the RAF. The Germans had around 4-5 times more aircraft and pilots, better trained and more combat experienced pilots and momentum on their side. Radar was indeed very helpful, as was the much superior British C&C system. And then of course the Germans had Goring and Hitler.:rolleyes::D
 
Those were important factors but I think it is a bit of an overstatement to say that all tactical factors favored the RAF. The Germans had around 4-5 times more aircraft and pilots, better trained and more combat experienced pilots and momentum on their side. Radar was indeed very helpful, as was the much superior British C&C system. And then of course the Germans had Goring and Hitler.:rolleyes::D

I'm not sure about the 4-5 times number. Does it include British bombers? For some reason these comparisons are often between all available German planes but only Brit fighters. The Brit bombers were used to bomb targets in France and Germany and were a factor in the battle. In addition, a major disadvantage for the Germans was the fact that the Luftwaffe was never intended to be a long range strategic bombing force acting on it's own. It was designed to be used similar to artillery as tactical support for blitzkrieg ground forces. Planes like the Stuka are the best examples. The Germans had nothing like the B17.
 
I'm not sure about the 4-5 times number. Does it include British bombers? For some reason these comparisons are often between all available German planes but only Brit fighters. The Brit bombers were used to bomb targets in France and Germany and were a factor in the battle. In addition, a major disadvantage for the Germans was the fact that the Luftwaffe was never intended to be a long range strategic bombing force acting on it's own. It was designed to be used similar to artillery as tactical support for blitzkrieg ground forces. Planes like the Stuka are the best examples. The Germans had nothing like the B17.
No the number is simply offense versus defense but the British bomber numbers wouldn't have raised it to anything approaching good odds, although they were indeed helpful. As it was, many bomber pilots were being borrowed for fighter duty so they had little if any reserve.

I think the lack of strategic bombers in the battle is of less consequence. The bombers were more than capable for their task, which was a medium range bombing effort. The Stuka was obviously too slow to be properly escorted and was quickly withdrawn from the assault. No doubt these medium range bombers were poorly armed and quite vulnerable without escort but they had decent range, speed and bomb load for their numbers.

The bigger disadvantage was the limited escort time over target, especially when Hitler made the monumental mistake of sending them further north to London. Even our vastly superior long range B-17s suffered horrible losses when unescorted and many more German bombers were lost after the departure of their escorts than before. Also, Goring's 'brilliant' midstream idea to keep the figthers closer to the bombers was extremely helpful to the RAF.
 
Here is an interesting article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IBO/is_4_24/ai_74582443/?tag=content;col1

Note that fighter strength is roughly equal. Something less than 3:1 when comparing all available German planes and only Brit fighters. Whether that is a valid point of comparison is subject to different opinions.

Luftwaffe Order of Battle--August 1940

Establishment Strength Serviceability
Bombers 1,569 1,481 998
Dive-bombers 348 327 261
Single-engine fighters 1,011 934 805
Twin-engine fighters 301 289 224
Reconnaissance 246 195 151
Ground attack 40 39 31
Coastal 94 93 80
Total 3,609 3,358 2,550

Fighter Command Order of Battle--11 August 1940

Establishment Strength Serviceability

Hurricanes 723 721 656
Spitfires 366 374 334
Total 1,089 1,095 990
 
Spitfrnd...

I find it strange, and this was my confusion to your original assertion that somehow, memory serves to dull these veterans notions of how good the Me109 was and, I cannot really agree that this causes the comments which were on the documentary and as you have not seen it these two men are very lucid about their experiences.

You mention simulators and models and empiracle evidence but, I am talking about real men who faught in this battle who I have grown up with and listened to their stories have their diaries and other service documentation and, been fortunate to interview 41 pilots who faught in the BOB through my life. I know many veterans who are still fortuantely with us and cannot accept that because the discourse they say is not similar to your findings that it can be as easily disgarded as you seem to do.

Many pilots I have spoken too have spoken about the two issues that originally started this discussion fire power of the 109 and the injection system bare witness to the fact that it was a hard aircraft to fight against. I have probably read all the same (maybe more maybe less) or, similar documents, research, books etc but, its just a little simplistic IMO to say its down to bedfuddled minds or, similar because it does not concur with certain ascertions you have.

The men in the documentary flew at the time in combat conditions against the Luftwaffe and their opinions on the subject are unbelievably valuable and important and, if they say the me 109 was a good aircraft why should that be questioned by folk who have never battled in a spitfire over the skies of england.
Mitch
 
Those were important factors but I think it is a bit of an overstatement to say that all tactical factors favored the RAF. The Germans had around 4-5 times more aircraft and pilots, better trained and more combat experienced pilots and momentum on their side. Radar was indeed very helpful, as was the much superior British C&C system. And then of course the Germans had Goring and Hitler.:rolleyes::D


LOL!:D:D

Spot on, they had Goring and Hitler. Two super arrogant twats who totally underestimated both the resolve of the people and the determination of the men of the RAF,and as a result got the first and War changing arse kicking they so richly deserved. The docu I saw last week 'Battlefield dectective' suggested that boththe Spit and ME had advantages over the other, but sheer numbers of RAF aircraft, the Observer Corp and Radar all played a part in Final Victory and that by the time London was bombed the Luftwaffe were being attacked by more and more aircraft that they simply could not deal with.

They concluded that the RAF with radar won the Battle and Goring's arrogance was also a factor in their loss. The victory was the very start of a long road to final victory in WW2. A senior Luftwaffe officer on trial in Nuremburg was asked if Stalingrad was the beginning of the end for Nazi Germany, no he replied, the Battle of Britain was the beginning of the end.

Rob
 
Spitfrnd...

I find it strange, and this was my confusion to your original assertion that somehow, memory serves to dull these veterans notions of how good the Me109 was and, I cannot really agree that this causes the comments which were on the documentary and as you have not seen it these two men are very lucid about their experiences.

You mention simulators and models and empirical evidence but, I am talking about real men who fought in this battle who I have grown up with and listened to their stories have their diaries and other service documentation and, been fortunate to interview 41 pilots who fought in the BOB through my life. I know many veterans who are still fortunately with us and cannot accept that because the discourse they say is not similar to your findings that it can be as easily disgarded as you seem to do.

Many pilots I have spoken too have spoken about the two issues that originally started this discussion fire power of the 109 and the injection system bare witness to the fact that it was a hard aircraft to fight against. I have probably read all the same (maybe more maybe less) or, similar documents, research, books etc but, its just a little simplistic IMO to say its down to bedfuddled minds or, similar because it does not concur with certain assertions you have.

The men in the documentary flew at the time in combat conditions against the Luftwaffe and their opinions on the subject are unbelievably valuable and important and, if they say the me 109 was a good aircraft why should that be questioned by folk who have never battled in a spitfire over the skies of england.
Mitch
Mitch I have nothing but respect, as I hope you can tell from my last post, for those RAF pilots who fought in the BoB. The fact that I trained as a fighter pilot and flew aircraft in combat makes me all the more appreciative of the vastly more challenging experience they had in the BoB. It also means I have some real world idea of how fighter combat worked then and now. That does not mean that the impressions of those who were interviewed for that one documentary are more accurate than all the other data available. Moreover, you have suggested nothing specific about those comments that would cause them to supersede the factual comparisons that can be made, the tests flown by test pilots and ex aces since then and the competing observations made then by many RAF and even biased German aces. It is not as though all ex BoB pilots say one thing and everyone else the other. All this makes what I take as your characterization of my conclusion as a simplistic reliance on befuddled minds rather unfathomable. As I have said numerous times, I don't mind what you chose to believe, I am merely offering some reasons why that belief may not be as well founded as suggested.;)
 
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Here is an interesting article: http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0IBO/is_4_24/ai_74582443/?tag=content;col1

Note that fighter strength is roughly equal. Something less than 3:1 when comparing all available German planes and only Brit fighters. Whether that is a valid point of comparison is subject to different opinions.

Luftwaffe Order of Battle--August 1940

Establishment Strength Serviceability
Bombers 1,569 1,481 998
Dive-bombers 348 327 261
Single-engine fighters 1,011 934 805
Twin-engine fighters 301 289 224
Reconnaissance 246 195 151
Ground attack 40 39 31
Coastal 94 93 80
Total 3,609 3,358 2,550

Fighter Command Order of Battle--11 August 1940

Establishment Strength Serviceability

Hurricanes 723 721 656
Spitfires 366 374 334
Total 1,089 1,095 990
Assuming those numbers are accurate, I think 3:1 is a valid conclusion. The Hurricanes were mostly tasked to attack the bombers and were outnumbered there alone 1.5:1. Add the twin engine fighters and it is near 2:1. Also, it typically did take more that one fighter to bring down a bomber so even conservatively, that is a 2:1 deficiency. That leaves the remaining 334 Spitfires against 805 German single engine fighters, the majority of which were 109Es. Couple that with the fact that the Hurricanes and Spitfires were scattered around the UK and only about 1/2 available to counter usual southern oriented BoB attacks and I think 3:1 is pretty conservative practical number. I also think the RAF servicability numbers got relatively worse before the BoB was over and when you add availability of experienced pilots, it looks more like an effective ratio of 4:1 for defense versus offense to me.
 
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..... A senior Luftwaffe officer on trial in Nuremburg was asked if Stalingrad was the beginning of the end for Nazi Germany, no he replied, the Battle of Britain was the beginning of the end.

Rob
But Rob, I thought it was "the end of the beginning.":D:D:D
 
:D:D

Bill, I've had a couple of glasses of wine, now don't confuse me!:D;)

Rob
Understood mate, the sun is not yet below the ole yard arm here.;) Just be sure not "...to sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science....":D:D
 
Understood mate, the sun is not yet below the ole yard arm here.;) Just be sure not "...to sink into the abyss of a new Dark Age made more sinister, and perhaps more protracted, by the lights of perverted science....":D:D

:D:D

LOL! You've got me worried about having a Whisky and lemonade now Bill:D

Talking of Yard arms, how about that HMS Victory then Bill??:cool:

Rob
 
:D:D

LOL! You've got me worried about having a Whisky and lemonade now Bill:D

Talking of Yard arms, how about that HMS Victory then Bill??:cool:

Rob
That sounds amazing mate.:cool: I can't wait to see it. Lord knows what the tab on that one will be though; do you know how many cannons that thing had.:eek::eek:
 

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