Kaisers staffwagon 2! (1 Viewer)

[lancer]

Yeah, that one was a classic, have to give Dave props for that one.

I'm telling you; find a 110 year old German soldier who fought in WWI and ask him and all of this will be solved.............

Alas, there are no living Central Power vets left. The mystery lives on. There are only 3 WW1 vets still alive, 2 from Great Britain, and 1 from the US. Pretty sure they didn't see the staffwagon. -- Al

 

[Mitch]

perhaps we really should have a little more respect for WWI vets than some of the failed attempt at humorous annecdotes that have been used in the first post and now being brought up here. in jest or just unthinking for me its a no no. But, it gives some a sense of laughs???
Mitch

 

[Phantom Warrior]

perhaps we really should have a little more respect for WWI vets than some of the failed attempt at humorous annecdotes that have been used in the first post and now being brought up here. in jest or just unthinking for me its a no no. But, it gives some a sense of laughs???
Mitch

It isn't necessary to find a 110 year old soldier who may have never been anywhere near a Kaiserwagen. Books, photos and documents also fill that role.

And I say again, what impressed me was that without photos or solid documentary proof that the Kaiserwagen existed, a senior member of a WWI vehicle forum used Andy's design as an example of what it may have looked like.

And Rob is so correct - look at the size of the Kaiserwagen next to the staff car. It's a huge model There is a fair bit of model there even at $225.

Terry

 

[marco55]

Alas, there are no living Central Power vets left. The mystery lives on. There are only 3 WW1 vets still alive, 2 from Great Britain, and 1 from the US. Pretty sure they didn't see the staffwagon. -- Al

Isn't it amazing that of all of those millions of soldiers only 3 are left and all of the pain and suffering that went on for what. All those people are gone and there are still major problems in the world.Humans are the smartest and dumbest creatures on earth.
Mark

 

[Rob]

Isn't it amazing that of all of those millions of soldiers only 3 are left and all of the pain and suffering that went on for what. All those people are gone and there are still major problems in the world.Humans are the smartest and dumbest creatures on earth.
Mark

Well said.I often see footage of WW1 Soldiers marching along smiling,laughing and waving at the camera, and its hard to imagine that none of them walking by so full of life are still with us. They were indeed heroes, and although we havn't learned the lesson yet, we owe them so much.

Rob

 

[Warrior]

It isn't necessary to find a 110 year old soldier who may have never been anywhere near a Kaiserwagen. Books, photos and documents also fill that role.

Not always the case.

The best way to prove if something did or did not exist is to ask someone who was there, but in this case, that is not possible. Just like the comment about BBG 039 and it was NEVER used as a commmand vehicle during the Battle of the Bulge; unless you were in the battle, how could you say so with 100% certainty.

Thus the ask a WWI vet comment, which was sarcastic, not meant to insult any WWI vets. Not my intent; to claim otherwise and put words in my mouth is annoying.

I have the highest respect for all past and present veterans.

Both of my grandfathers fought in WWI, one of which was wounded.

Twice.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

It is much more difficult to prove something did not exist than to prove something did exist. While there is no hard evidence that the Kaiserwagen existed, there apparently are some references to it which may have given a basic description. I have not seen any of these references but have only been told about them.

There is no realistic way to prove the kaiserwagen did not exist. Unlike the case of a King Tiger in North Afrika which can be proven as not possible, the technology for the Kaiserwagen certainly existed and there could have been one. But what it actually looked like is open for debate.

Terry

 

[Warrior]

It is much more difficult to prove something did not exist than to prove something did exist. While there is no hard evidence that the Kaiserwagen existed, there apparently are some references to it which may have given a basic description. I have not seen any of these references but have only been told about them.

There is no realistic way to prove the kaiserwagen did not exist. Unlike the case of a King Tiger in North Afrika which can be proven as not possible, the technology for the Kaiserwagen certainly existed and there could have been one. But what it actually looked like is open for debate.

Terry

Extremely well put, couldn't agree more.

Very well stated.........

 

[Arnhemjim]

As a retired intelligence analyst and having done a reasonable amount of historical research on K&C’s Arnhem ’44, Market Garden and Napoleonic Gordon Highlanders series, I was curious as a result of the forum discussion regarding the forthcoming FW092 “Kaiser Bill’s Staffwagen”. Here are the first cut results of my research. There is a book entitled, MILITARY TRANSPORT OF WORLD WAR I, including vintage vehicles and post war models, C. Ellis and D. Bishop, Blandford Press Ltd., London, 1970 (also MacMillan Co. in the USA), Lib of Congress Card No. 71-124874. Perhaps other members of the forum may have the same reference in their library.

Plate 33 in the book is captioned NAG 4-ton Lorry, Military Subvention Type, 1909-12, Germany. The truck chassis is basically identical (down to several small details) to the K&C “Staffwagen” with the following exceptions; 1) Set of headlights mounted adjacent to the engine bonnet (hood), 2) Steering wheel and hand brake lever on right hand side, 3) Larger rear wheels with drive belts (not chains) coming off transmission feed spindles which are further forward on each side of the chassis, 4) Hand crank for starting in center below radiator, 5) What appear to be all four solid rubber tires and 6) Upright engine exhaust pipe on right hand side of driver's compartment.

The depicted configuration is a cargo truck with a canvas canopy over the wooden bed (with wooden sides), and folding canvas cover over the driver's compartment. Would be a fair conclusion that the drawing in the book may well have served as at least one reference source.

Can neither confirm or deny (that's intelligence speak) the authenticity of any further specific application/modification incorporated in the "Staffwagen" model.

Would suggest interested forum members may want to Google search the above cited caption for possible additional information. Hope this helps.

Best regards for a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year,
Arnhemjim

 

[wadepat]

Hi Jim,

Thank you for posting this infomation. I think it is very helpful!

Warmest personal regards,

Pat

 

[jazzeum]

Thanks Jim, that is helpful. Does the book say if it was a Mercedes as that is what the K & C one is supposed to be.

 

[Mitch]

I think the down fall with asking veterans (though a primary source of information and often vital and of greater importance than other) is that veterans can indeed be in one battle or one part of the battlefield and the vehicle or action could well be in another and, although, they can state ''I was there'' it does not mean their recollections can help the investigation in hand. Unless they were in the vehicle or saw it etc then their response holds little empiracle validity.

This is where secondary evidence such as unit histories deployment histories etc are far more informative. there is such a plethora of information available especially in germany and the fact that the russian are handing over large amounts of new information that we are now spoilt for information which, can assist in things like this

Without someone finding it a ''eureka'' moment then it looks like we will have to wait until Andy informs us.
Mitch

 

[Arnhemjim]

NAG (Neau Automobil Gesellschaft) was the most powerful of this range of government subsidized (subvented) trucks. However eleven firms received approval to build subsidy types as a result of trials. Among the firms was Daimler (later Daimler-Benz). It may be of further interest that the wheel (track) width was restricted to less than 2 meters, deliberately chosen (before hostilities started) as an optimum width for use on French (rather than German) roads.

 

[jazzeum]

As a point of clarification, Mercedes and Daimler were separate companies at this time; Mercedes did not acquire Daimler until after WW II.

 

[Phantom Warrior]

As a point of clarification, Mercedes and Daimler were separate companies at this time; Mercedes did not acquire Daimler until after WW II.

And I'm not even sure that Mercedes made trucks during WWI. As far as I know they only made engines.

Terry

 

[PolarBear]

As a retired intelligence analyst and having done a reasonable amount of historical research on K&C’s Arnhem ’44, Market Garden and Napoleonic Gordon Highlanders series, I was curious as a result of the forum discussion regarding the forthcoming FW092 “Kaiser Bill’s Staffwagen”. Here are the first cut results of my research. There is a book entitled, MILITARY TRANSPORT OF WORLD WAR I, including vintage vehicles and post war models, C. Ellis and D. Bishop, Blandford Press Ltd., London, 1970 (also MacMillan Co. in the USA), Lib of Congress Card No. 71-124874. Perhaps other members of the forum may have the same reference in their library.

Plate 33 in the book is captioned NAG 4-ton Lorry, Military Subvention Type, 1909-12, Germany. The truck chassis is basically identical (down to several small details) to the K&C “Staffwagen” with the following exceptions; 1) Set of headlights mounted adjacent to the engine bonnet (hood), 2) Steering wheel and hand brake lever on right hand side, 3) Larger rear wheels with drive belts (not chains) coming off transmission feed spindles which are further forward on each side of the chassis, 4) Hand crank for starting in center below radiator, 5) What appear to be all four solid rubber tires and 6) Upright engine exhaust pipe on right hand side of driver's compartment.

The depicted configuration is a cargo truck with a canvas canopy over the wooden bed (with wooden sides), and folding canvas cover over the driver's compartment. Would be a fair conclusion that the drawing in the book may well have served as at least one reference source.

Can neither confirm or deny (that's intelligence speak) the authenticity of any further specific application/modification incorporated in the "Staffwagen" model.

Would suggest interested forum members may want to Google search the above cited caption for possible additional information. Hope this helps.

Best regards for a Happy, Healthy and Prosperous New Year,
Arnhemjim

Here is the book Jim is talking about. I used to own it but sold it in 2004, otherwise I would scan in the plate.

 

[Mitch]

We are looking at pictures of lookalikes at the moment at this rate the kaisers first cup of coffee will be washing down fried Dodo or a slice of Nessie!!! I think its been seen that many like the set and will buy it regardless I just cannot see why we are not told IMO its not the end of the world and probably, won't affect sales in the slightest
Mitch

 

[Harvey]

As the "thing" was supposedly manufactured by Mercedes, I made a research with Google but in French and I found the following website: http://www.mercedes-damien.com/historique/historique.htm

The interesting paragraph is the 6th: La premiere guerre mondiale vint perturber leurs projets. Les usines d'automobiles travailleront presque exclusivement pour l'armement. L'usine Daimler orientera ses efforts dans le domaine de l'aéronautique et une nouvelle usine sera construite à Sindelfingen pour produire des avions et des moteurs d'avions.

Using the online translation service called Reverso, it gives: The premiere world war came to disrupt(perturb) their projects. Automobile factories will work almost exclusively for the armament. The Daimler factory will direct its efforts in the field of the aeronautics and a new factory will be built to Sindelfingen to produce planes and engines of planes. (I didn't changed a single word in the translation as I didn't wanted to be accused of falsification)

To each his own conclusion.

Harvey

 

[Currahee Chris]

This is where secondary evidence such as unit histories deployment histories etc are far more informative.

and potentially biased. "Official" accounts can often be wildly exaggerated compared to the events on the ground.

 

[Rob]

Having seen these various pics of these vehicles, does anyone else think one of those old London buses the British Army shipped out to the Western front to ferry troops about would be a very nice release?.

Rob