Napoleonic Trivia #34 (1 Viewer)

Grognard

Grognard

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Which famously impetuous French cavalry general was able to achieve with his brigade what nobody has done before: penetrate and destroy not one but three British infantry squares in the same battle!
 
Grognard said:
Which famously impetuous French cavalry general was able to achieve with his brigade what nobody has done before: penetrate and destroy not one but three British infantry squares in the same battle!
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These..are...so...hard{sm4}{eek3}! I look up around 20 guys, and got nothing....
 
Napoleon1er said:
These..are...so...hard{sm4}{eek3}! I look up around 20 guys, and got nothing....
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John was complaining that the previous one was too easy, so I thought I should make the next one a little harder...:rolleyes2:
 
trooper said:
Kellerman at Quatre Bras? Trooper
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I'd agree with Trooper.... BUT

it seems that the 3 regiments were in line NOT a square

It was Kellermann's cuirassiers caught the British 5th Brigade
33rd West Riding
69th South Lincolnshire
73rd

in line formation.

Here's a square the 28th Regt at Battle of Quatre Bras
800px-Butler_Lady_Quatre_Bras_1815.jpg


John
 
Obee said:
I'd agree with Trooper.... BUT

it seems that the 3 regiments were in line NOT a square

It was Kellermann's cuirassiers caught the British 5th Brigade
33rd West Riding
69th South Lincolnshire
73rd

in line formation.

Here's a square the 28th Regt at Battle of Quatre Bras
800px-Butler_Lady_Quatre_Bras_1815.jpg


John
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John- your right about them not being in square- if you recal me bashing on Mr. Orange, this was one of his blunders. These regements were in square, and the French cavalry was just over a ridge, waiting for a chance to get them. Then William saw them standing there, and ordered them into line because he could nit see the cavalry. All of his advisors and scours told him they were just over the hill, but je would not listen. Before they all died, the infantry tried to form rally squares, but only some were partialy sucessfull. That is why I hate the Prince.
-Sandor
 
The only other incident I can think of was at Albuhera where Latour-Maubourg's cavalry headed by Konopka hit Colburne's brigade. But again those regiments were not in square. I can find no reference to a British square being broken during the Napoleonic Wars. Trooper
 
trooper said:
The only other incident I can think of was at Albuhera where Latour-Maubourg's cavalry headed by Konopka hit Colburne's brigade. But again those regiments were not in square. I can find no reference to a British square being broken during the Napoleonic Wars. Trooper
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This is not the right answer but (hint) this was during the Peninsular War...
 
OK guys, the answer is General Count François Louis Fournier Sarlovèze who in May 1811 at Fuentes de Oñoro, with his brigade, destroyed 3 squares of British infantry. No wonder he was a good friend of General Lasalle and got nicknamed "El Demonio" by the Spaniards...

 
Grognard said:
OK guys, the answer is General Count François Louis Fournier Sarlovèze who in May 1811 at Fuentes de Oñoro, with his brigade, destroyed 3 squares of British infantry. No wonder he was a good friend of General Lasalle and got nicknamed "El Demonio" by the Spaniards...

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Ok, so when I was pouring over lists of French cavalry generals and battles on the Peninsular War (I knew it was the Peninsular War from the first), I read up on this battle, but failed to see any mention on ANY broken squares. In fact, the ONLY MENTION I saw of this occurrence, in French or in English, was right here:
http://www.napoleon-series.org/cgi-bin/forum/archive2002_config.pl?md=read;id=4966
Though I trust your knowledge completely, I don't know if this one is 100% true.... This was a major battle, and there is no mention of the incedent:rolleyes2:
Prove me wrong,
Sandor:salute::
 
Sorry me old Groggy but I must challenge this one. Can find no reference apart from that mentioned by Sandor. Can you let us know your source,and the British regiments involved? Trooper
 
trooper said:
Sorry me old Groggy but I must challenge this one. Can find no reference apart from that mentioned by Sandor. Can you let us know your source,and the British regiments involved? Trooper
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Ahh! You have to read French :wink2:. I can give you one source which mentions this event, the following Wikipedia French article: http://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/François_Louis_Fournier_Sarlovèze. Now I don't fully trust Wikipedia and this was not actually my first source on this one; I had indeed another historical source in French too that mentioned this "Fait d'armes". The wording is way different from Wikipedia's so I believe this other article is not a replica of it. I can't give you the second one since this is one of my resources for my trivia questions :rolleyes2:. Of course like you I was not there and you can always challenge the veracity of sources...
 
Checked out the source you gave and, like Sandor's, no British regiments are identified. Does your other source identify them? I am in the process of checking histories of regiments that were present at the battle but have still a considerable way to go. Will post anything relevant that I find. Trooper
 
trooper said:
Checked out the source you gave and, like Sandor's, no British regiments are identified. Does your other source identify them? I am in the process of checking histories of regiments that were present at the battle but have still a considerable way to go. Will post anything relevant that I find. Trooper
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Nope, the other source didn't mention either which actual Bristish unit(s) was(were) impacted. You may find out from the ones engaged on that battle though by digging further on their history. Let me know if you find anything new on this event. I will on my end...
 
Grognard said:
Nope, the other source didn't mention either which actual Bristish unit(s) was(were) impacted. You may find out from the ones engaged on that battle though by digging further on their history. Let me know if you find anything new on this event. I will on my end...
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I have found this:

After a cross-reference with the Osprey Campaigns n° 99 by René Chartrand, I read on page 81 -:
“The French were more fortunate a little further west. There, a piquet from Stopford’s Foot Guards Brigade in Spencer’s 1st Division formed a small square to resist the oncoming French cavalry. The square easily beat off the rather disorganized charge by the French troopers. Unfortunately, their commander, Lieutenant-Colonel George Hill of the Scots Guards, the ordered his men into an extended skirmish line again. At that point a second charge made by the 13th Chasseurs à Cheval (20 officers and 250 man) that broke through three companies and cut down some 70 men in a matter of minutes, taking Hill and 20 others prisoner. The rest of the guards piquet banded together and resisted the onslaught as best it could until relieved by a troop of the 1st Royal Dragoons and a squadron of the 14th Light Dragoons. By that time, the Guards had suffered about 100 casualties”

And on the British Battles website http://www.britishbattles.com/peninsula/fuentes.htm
I find that the 1st Brigade was commanded by Colonel Stopford: 1st/Coldstream Guards, 1st/3rd Guards, 1 Co. 5th/60th Foot.
Also the Coldstream Guards lost 1 officer and 53 soldiers killed and wounded, 3rd Guards lost 2 officers and 57 soldiers killed and wounded, 60th Foot lost 4 officers and 24 soldiers killed and wounded

Does that help?

John
 
Apart from the incident mentioned by Obee the casualty returns for the remainder of the British units are comparatively light except for those engaged in the hand to hand fighting in the village. It would be assumed that had any square been broken, let alone three, the casualties would have been excessive. I am inclined to the belief that Obee's incident has been exagerated and the units were in line. Sarloveze's claim is part of French myth, on a par with the "sunken road" at Waterloo. However I must admit I have not been able to check out the Portuguese units present. Trooper
 
trooper said:
Apart from the incident mentioned by Obee the casualty returns for the remainder of the British units are comparatively light except for those engaged in the hand to hand fighting in the village. It would be assumed that had any square been broken, let alone three, the casualties would have been excessive. I am inclined to the belief that Obee's incident has been exagerated and the units were in line. Sarloveze's claim is part of French myth, on a par with the "sunken road" at Waterloo. However I must admit I have not been able to check out the Portuguese units present. Trooper
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I have to agree:redface2::(
-Sandor:salute::
 
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